[00:00]Maya Pomroy: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Up Next Series, where faculty, researchers, and alumni weigh in on the trends currently shaping the world of business.

Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. I'm your host, Maya Pomroy. Tonight's conversation is something that I've really been looking forward to. It's something that's very, very pertinent and very, very timely. You know, what does it take to lead in high-stakes situations? And that's something that we're seeing every single day. Every single day, there's a new high-stakes situation, but what does it really take to be the best of the best?

And that question is really at the heart of tonight's conversation, and there is no better person to have this conversation with other than the premier expert in the field, Dr. Anthea Zhang, who is the Fayez Sarofim Vanguard Chair of Strategic Management, and I would like to please welcome her to come and join me.

[01:11]Anthea Zhang: Well, thank you, Maya, for having me here.

[01:13]Maya Pomroy: Great. Thank you for coming. You are one of the most respected voices in the field, anywhere, really, in the world. You focus your research on decisions that shape organizations, CEO successions, corporate governance, a way for women to really take leadership roles, and those decisions are the ones that really make the difference for an organization to thrive or to fail.

So, you have spent your life really studying this. You've been at Rice since 2001.

[01:49]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[01:49]Maya Pomroy: So, for a couple of decades, along with your husband, who is in the audience, also a professor, Professor Li, who, you know, I took his class as well as, as well as yours, which has been, they were two of my favorites. Don't tell anybody else.

But, you know, it's really wonderful to be able to have a partnership like that at Rice, and I think it's really unique to Rice to have a, you know, it's a family affair. You know, you both have two children.

[02:20]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[02:20]Maya Pomroy: One decided to follow you here and be a Rice alum, and the other one didn't, and you can't win them all.

[02:27]Anthea Zhang: Yeah.

[02:27]Maya Pomroy: So, since your time at Rice, your work has been featured in The Economist, in The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times. You are a past president of the Strategic Management Society, and you teach two Rice Business executive ed programs, including Executive Leadership for Women, and you're the faculty director in that.

You hold a bachelor's, a master's in economics, a master's in philosophy, and also a Ph.D. in business administration from USC. You're a devoted patron of the Houston Grand Opera and of the Houston Ballet, and, you know, you have been here for quite some time, but you didn't start here. You started in China.

[03:15]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[03:16]Maya Pomroy: And I wanted to, my first question is, let's talk about your origin story and what brought you here to Rice.

[03:23]Anthea Zhang: Sure, yeah. I grew up in a small city, means by the size of China, right? It is still decent size compared to cities outside of China. So, both my parents were accountants, so, well, if data matters, I'm pretty good with numbers, right, since my parents are both accountants.

So, in high school at that time, you know, just tell you how old I am, I graduated from high school in the year of 1988. At that time, China's economy was about to pick up, you know, the government was about to start opening in this policy. So, at, in that year, like, if good in math, you should get a math major in college. If good in chemistry, you should pursue a chemistry major.

My problem was that I was quite strong in all the subjects. "What do I do? What, what major should I choose?" Then a professor from Nanjing University came to my high school, right, kind of, with the wish to get the best students to Nanjing University. He said, "You know, how about business school? This is brand new."

I said, "Wow, business school. That sounds very cool, right?" So, that's why I submitted, applied to Business School of Nanjing University, and got in, and I was one of our first cohort of Nanjing University Business School.

[04:50]Maya Pomroy: The first one?

[04:51]Anthea Zhang: Yes, the first one, yes.

[04:52]Maya Pomroy: Sort of, like the Virani School first?

[04:52]Anthea Zhang: "[crosstalk 00:04:53] that is what business about?" No. Since then, I have been just moving around from one business school to another business school, right? So, that's really how the journey started, but no regret, no regret. Yeah.

[05:08]Maya Pomroy: No regret.

[05:08]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[05:09]Maya Pomroy: So, when did you come to the U.S., and what brought you to Rice?

[05:12]Anthea Zhang: That is really a good question. After I finished my bachelor's degree, master's degree in economics in Nanjing University, so I went to Hong Kong, studied in City University of Hong Kong. That's where I met with my husband.

Indeed, one of my mentors said that, "Anthea, you know, what is your best achievement during your two and a half years in Hong Kong?" I said, "What is it? It isn't my master of philosophy degree in international business." She said, "No, you found your husband there." "Good, bingo. I agree with that." "How did you meet?" Yeah, we all, we were like, he was one year ahead of me, like two of us plus maybe 10 other grad students, we shared a big office. You know, when you have like 10-plus young people sharing a big office-

[05:59]Maya Pomroy:[inaudible 00:05:59].

[05:59]Anthea Zhang: ... some of them will start to date.

[06:03]Maya Pomroy: Right.

[06:03]Anthea Zhang: So, then later, you know, I went to USC.

[06:07]Maya Pomroy: Wait, before that, who made better grades?

[06:10]Anthea Zhang: Of course, me.

[06:10]Maya Pomroy: Okay, good. Good answer.

[06:12]Anthea Zhang: Right, I was very nerdy. Even my mom said that, "You were so nerdy, I did not expect you to become, like, a nerd." I said, "Well, Mom, what do you mean? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" But anyway, I was very nerdy, so that means that I got the best grades then.

So, I went to USC, you know, finished my Ph.D. I was so grateful, like I got an offer from Rice University. You know, Rice has been such a great school for 100 years, yes, right? It really was my dream school. I'm so glad the dream came true. And also, because we were facing dual-career issue, people who are into career, you know, how challenging it can be. So, luckily, I got an offer from Rice, and my husband got an offer from Texas A&M College Station. It was very interesting. I remember one day in my USC Ph.D. office, it's an office with no window. So, doctoral students here, if you have a window, you are fortunate, you're lucky. If you don't have a window, great, you know.

So, my colleague asked me, said, "Anthea, so where do you plan to live?" I say, "Somewhere in between, between Houston and College Station." He grew up in Houston. He said, "There's nothing in between."

[07:35]Maya Pomroy: There's wildflowers.

[07:36]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[07:36]Maya Pomroy: Beautiful, between Houston and [inaudible 00:07:38].

[07:38]Anthea Zhang: In the right season.

[07:39]Maya Pomroy: Yeah.

[07:40]Anthea Zhang: So, that's why, how we both us, you know, came to Texas and called Texas home.

[07:46]Maya Pomroy: So, tell me about the culture at Rice, because you have, like I said, you've been here since 2001.

[07:52]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[07:52]Maya Pomroy: What is it about the culture at Rice that has made you, you know, recognize how special of a place that it is?

[07:59]Anthea Zhang: Yeah, you know, for a long while, of course, I have been in only one place for 25 years. For people, I would say, like, I'm a kind of dinosaur in today's world who stays in one place for, you know, a whole career.

[08:16]Maya Pomroy: Most Rice professors actually do.

[08:19]Anthea Zhang: True, right? So, because of that, you know, I, kind of, have very few reference points to compare my Rice experience versus what would have been if I were in another place, right?

But anyway, I, you know, took a leave of absence for a year more than 10 years ago. I just took two-semester sabbaticals or visited other schools. Now I have some reference points, and those reference points really make me realize, wow, Rice is really, really unique.

I think one way is that, you know, is I think one is really because of size, so people just know each other. And also, it's more than just size, it's also the culture. People, you know, care about each other. I give you example. Nina, right, Nina, we are going to miss you this morning, right? A school threw our farewell party for Nina. Nina has been in the school for 21 years.

[09:19]Maya Pomroy: Wow.

[09:20]Anthea Zhang: I mean that, you know, many of us faculty and staff, we have been in this place, in the corner of this building. My first building was in Herring Hall, but I love this one more, right?

And we call this building, this campus, home, right? Ruth in the audience, Ruth and I actually went hiking together. We spent like, you know, four nights living in one tent. I said, "Ruth, since we did not kill each other after sharing one tent for four nights, we got to be friends."

So, you know, these stories tell you, you know, how it's really a very close community, not only between faculty but also between faculty and staff, and also, I still keep close contact with many of my former students. You are one of them, right?

I think that is so unique about Rice. It's more than just a school, more than just a job. It's a community, it's a family. And of course, my son now is a junior in Rice studying economics.

[10:18]Maya Pomroy: Economics.

[10:20]Anthea Zhang: You don't see him in business school. The only reason is because dad, mom in this building.

[10:26]Maya Pomroy: Well, so how is it? How is it being in the same building with your husband? You know, like what is it like? There's another husband-and-wife team.

[10:34]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[10:34]Maya Pomroy: You know, do you try to avoid each other at dinner?

[10:39]Anthea Zhang: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I remember when he moved from Texas A&M to Rice in the year of 2005, I only had one request. I said my office was on the second floor, your office has to be on the third or fourth, right? So, we, and I did not change my last name, so for many years people did not know.

[11:04]Maya Pomroy: I didn't know.

[11:05]Anthea Zhang: Yes, like we are married, so we, I guess, we kept the secret quite well.

[11:12]Maya Pomroy: Yes.

[11:13]Anthea Zhang: So, yeah.

[11:13]Maya Pomroy: So, you were mentioning that you took some sabbaticals, so you were able to have some, you know, some points of reference.

[11:18]Anthea Zhang: Right.

[11:19]Maya Pomroy: You also recently took two sabbaticals as well.

[11:22]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[11:22]Maya Pomroy: Can you tell me about those?

[11:24]Anthea Zhang: Yeah, it's like, it's really great times, all right? I took a sabbatical in the fall of 2024 and visited the leading business school in Europe for four months. Actually, he and I took sabbaticals together.

So, last fall we took sabbatical again and spent four semesters at Stanford University. So, both great schools, they are great in different ways. So, those experiences really expanded my perspectives, allowed me to see how other schools run, you know, what they are doing, and, you know, what kind of resources and capabilities are required to do what they do.

So, those experiences really, like, allowed me to come back and say, "Wow, this is a great place, but also there are a lot more we can do," right? We, you know, we are in Houston, we are a premier school, not only, like, in Texas but also nationwide, right? In the world, really. So, those experiences are really, really important and very rewarding.

[12:32]Maya Pomroy: So, let's turn to your research, because you have spent, you know, the better half of your life doing this specific kind of research of what makes organizations thrive. So, you know, the leadership at the highest levels, what have you noticed that sets people apart? What is it specifically that makes organizations successful and CEO successions? Because that's a very vulnerable-

[13:00]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[13:00]Maya Pomroy: ... time for an organization, and you, sort of, have to couple it with, you know, new perspectives, but also, new perspectives, and then everybody else, sort of, doesn't really know what to expect. So, what have you found in your research about that specifically?

[13:14]Anthea Zhang: So, as you mentioned earlier, like, a big chunk of my research focuses on CEO succession, the social interactions between CEO and the board of directors, as well as interaction between CEO and CFO. Of course, you know, people are very different, right? Over time, you know, what is required to become a CEO changes, but it's still some common things here. One is really, for example, recently I gave a keynote speech at the Financial Executives International. They have an annual honors day, you know, one of our Jones School alum, and, you know, we had a fireside chat interview, right? We talked about this question.

So, basically, you see that, you know, a lot of people want to transition from more function-based roles, like for example, chief marketing officer, chief financial officer, to the CEO position. A lot of people want to make that transition, but very few people can actually make it.

[14:17]Maya Pomroy: Who can and who can't?

[14:19]Anthea Zhang: Who can't? And, you know, it's from my point of view, again, based upon my research, right, it's more than just like, "Oh, what kind of personality do you have?" Personality does matter, right? But my research more focuses on, you know, your track record.

Basically, see that, you know, for people who already made it to top management team positions but still focus on more function-based roles, if you want to make it to the overall leadership role like a CEO, you have to take profit and loss responsibility. You have to expand, you know, the responsibility of your position. You know, of course, we see some people transition from CFO to CEO, but what is required for a CEO position is way more, it is way broader than, like, the CFO or chief marketing officer.

But for people who have been used to, you know, function-based positions, there might be concerns saying, "You know, wow, how do I get into an area I'm less familiar with," right? "I get into an industry I'm not familiar with, get into a function I don't have knowledge in," right? The point here is that you have to challenge yourself. Everybody should be their own career agent. If you don't challenge yourself, if you don't take a risk, nobody will ask you to do that, right?

So, point that, you know, if you want to take a CEO position, you need to have profit and loss responsibility. You need to expand it. You need to proactively ask, say that, "Hey, can I take a P&L responsibility?" A lot of times, you'll get that not by promotion. You're probably lucky if you get a lateral movement. A lot of time, in order to get the iconic experience you need, you have to be willing and say that, "You know, I'm willing to go to a small subsidiary that nobody wants, to take a CEO position there. I want to go one level lower in order to get the profit and loss responsibility."

So, you know, that's what people need to do if they really, really want to advance their career. You need to be your own agent, and you need to take a risk.

[16:43]Maya Pomroy: You also have to ask.

[16:43]Anthea Zhang: You also need to ask.

[16:45]Maya Pomroy: Because the answer is no 100% of the time if you don't ask.

[16:48]Anthea Zhang: Yes. Now that point, this point, the ask point is particularly important for women, because a lot of times, indeed, recently in Texas Asian Society, there was a panel in the oil and gas industry, three women on the stage.

One person, she said that, "All the promotions I got, I got them by asking. None of them came to me. None of the opportunities came to me automatically." So, asking, you know, dare to ask, dare to take risks, dare to get into areas, functions you are not comfortable with, you are not familiar with, which are those factors that are really key.

And you have to show your track record instead of saying, "I want to," you know, having a plan or having ambition is not sufficient. You have to show the track record. "These are what I have done. Based upon the track record, I believe I can take the next step responsibility."

[17:45]Maya Pomroy: Hmm. And you, you do lead a Women in Leadership through executive education that's coming up on May the 12th through the 15th.

[17:53]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[17:54]Maya Pomroy: And so, can you tell me about that program that's coming up? Is it specifically designed for women? That find themselves in, you know, it depends on the woman, right? I mean, I think if you're coming to Rice, then you're willing to take that risk that you were talking about.

[18:03]Anthea Zhang: Yes. Right. So, we are very excited about that program. I'm a faculty leader, but it is really a team effort. Michael is there, you know, Sunita is outside, and, you know, Carrie is there, really a team effort.

So, four faculty members of Jones School will teach the program. Our kickoff day is based upon my research of corporate women leadership. And then Daan will teach more, like psychology-based leadership by choice, followed by John and Annie. They cover topics about negotiation and reputation management.

So, we go back to my research. You know, I have done the gender role in CEO succession, the gender role in family-owned business, and also the gender role in the technology entrepreneurship field. So, my plan is, you know, to design the program based upon my academic research.

[19:04]Maya Pomroy: Hmm. And so, speaking of women, because I have a couple of questions about that, you know, what are the persistent challenges that women face right now? You know, we've come a long way.

[19:16]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[19:17]Maya Pomroy: But there's, you know, much further to go. But what are the challenges that you see in 2026 that didn't exist in 2016?

[19:28]Anthea Zhang: You know, I have to agree with you. We have come a long way. The fact that you and I are sitting here, you know, it tells that, you know, we have come a long way, right? Now what it is today is definitely way better than, say, 10 years ago, way better than 20 years ago, right? But what kind of challenges are there? You know, the thing is here is that I want to share two points. One is that, you know, for people who want to move up the career ladder, we need mentors.

[20:05]Maya Pomroy: Yes.

[20:06]Anthea Zhang: But a lot of times, you know, people in more senior positions are still men, right? So, that's why both male and female mentors are all important. Because you just, you know, because there are still so few women in senior leadership positions, right?

That's why if you only rely on more senior female leaders to champion for you, to mentor you, that's not sufficient. You really need mentoring from both male and female leaders. So, I think that is why one benefit of our program is that we really target women who already have some leadership experiences. We create a safe space for them to share their concerns, challenges, and also allow them to share best practices with each other in a safe space. So, we really needed that.

And also, another point I want to make, which is really based upon my recent study, which is about, you know, the gender's role in tech entrepreneurship. My study with three coauthors, we look at, you know, the evaluation, right?

What we find is that if, like, a woman remains silent, imagine a team of four persons present their project. If one woman is standing there silent throughout, that has a bad signal, right? It means that why are you there? You know, you are on the stage, right, but you don't talk at all. Why are you there? Why do you choose or ask not to speak? Either way, it is a bad signal, right?

Also, we look at the evaluator's gender. We find that female evaluators tend to downgrade the project represented by silent women, right? So, we just study, dive into, you know, why is that?

Well, I would suggest our conclusion is that, you know, because if the, you know, woman on the presenting side remains silent, it, kind of, highlights the stereotype of women in tech entrepreneurship means that women just cannot do, even if they are given the opportunity to be on the stage.

[22:30]Maya Pomroy: But it's a risk, right?

[22:32]Anthea Zhang: Yeah.

[22:33]Maya Pomroy: It's a risk that, to be on the stage and then have to speak or have to take that role or, you know, do something that's uncomfortable.

[22:38]Anthea Zhang: But that's a point, right? If you have opportunity to be on stage, prepare yourself, practice again, again, and when you are there, speak up. That's really, really key. Otherwise, not only, you know, reflect broadly on yourself, on the project you represent, and also seeing a woman on the other side of the table who evaluates the project.

[23:05]Maya Pomroy: So, for a woman that's stepping into a leadership role tomorrow-

[23:08]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[23:08]Maya Pomroy: ... what would you say to her in order to be successful? Words of wisdom.

[23:14]Anthea Zhang: Yeah. You know, that's a really good question. If, for my project I just described, I interviewed a dear friend, so she actually is both Rice alum and Jones School alum. She has been in a big oil service company for like three decades.

[23:31]Maya Pomroy: With a lot of men.

[23:33]Anthea Zhang: Yes, right? Imagine, like she recently retired. Remember that when she started her career, right, in oil and gas industry, she probably was one of the few, if not the only one, right? So, I asked her, "You know, so how do you handle that?" She said, "When I walk in, you know, I never think that I'm here because I'm a woman. I'm here because of my experience and expertise."

[23:57]Maya Pomroy: She pushed the gender away?

[23:58]Anthea Zhang: Yes, yeah, you know, push the gender away. She said that, "You know, if I apply..." [inaudible 00:24:03], she also emphasized, like, you know, ask. She came from a, you know, HR function, but she asked to take a P&L responsibility, and she got it, right?

She said if she asked for some position and, but for whatever reason she did not get it, her reaction was not like, "Oh, I'm not qualified." No. Her reaction was, "What's wrong with you?" I think that kind of strong confidence-

[24:31]Maya Pomroy: Yes.

[24:31]Anthea Zhang: ... is very important. So, that's what I would tell women, like, you know what, if you get a promotion, if you get an opportunity tomorrow, you know, be like that.

[24:40]Maya Pomroy: Yes. Well, that's wonderful advice to also give your daughters, if you have daughters. That's what you say, is that it's not that you didn't get the position because you weren't qualified for it, it's something wrong with the person that didn't give you the position. I love that. I love that.

So, let's talk about your role in the classroom, and here specifically at Rice. You know, can you share a moment in the classroom, you know, one from executive education or any other, what that genuinely you saw the thinking shift for them, you know, in the way that they were thinking, and something that you said or something that you did? Like, for me, I'm sorry, what you just said completely shifted my thinking. But can you share over the decades that you've taught at Rice, you know, those moments, those aha moments when you've noticed that, "Oh, I got to that person."

[25:32]Anthea Zhang: No, like, you know, the subject I teach the most is about global strategy, has nothing about gender, you know, it's like, it really very, like, rational-based, right? It's like, you know, what to do, which countries to enter, how to enter into a country by joint venture, greenfield investments, alliance, how to manage overseas subsidiary, you know, how to manage political risk, et cetera, right?

I have been, and this is a last required course for the two-year EMBA program, so, and I have been doing that for more than 10 years. That's why I'm proud to say, in the past 10 to 15 years, every EMBA student of Jones School was in my class.

[26:22]Maya Pomroy: I was one of them.

[26:23]Anthea Zhang: Yeah, yes. But even that, every time before I start my first class, typically in January, you know, the first week of, you know, of January, I was always nervous. I did not understand. You have been doing it for so many years, why do you still feel nervous? I say, "Remember...

[26:42]Maya Pomroy: Because every class is different.

[26:44]Anthea Zhang: Yeah, every class is different. You know, I'm going to face a class this year, actually, like 72 EMBA students. On average, they have 20–25 years working experience, and more than that, more than that, it's really, this is the last required course of the two-year program. Honestly, they're ready to go, you know? And also, check out my class, Friday morning, 8:00, is the last class after their winter break.

[27:16]Maya Pomroy: It's senioritis.

[27:17]Anthea Zhang: Yes, they're still in the holiday mood, but they have to come to Jones School, 8:00 a.m. Friday, to see me. So, I say, "I just don't know what kind of environment I'm, you know, I'm going to face." That's why I'm nervous.

But typically, after, you know, first class, "How was it?" "It's great." You know, I really enjoy teaching, particularly enjoy EMBA classes, because, you know, you guys have 20-plus years of experience. You know, I like to connect my teaching to the real problems you are facing today.

You know, my dream is that, you know, whatever we are discussing today is really, for example, like, you know, I remember like a major acquisition by a Japanese company of an American steel company. It was on the news the day before, and we discussed it 8:00 Friday morning. So, one student said, "Wow, Anthea, I just saw the news yesterday." I said, "That's precisely the point." You know, I want the class to focus on the current events.

[28:24]Maya Pomroy: Yes.

[28:24]Anthea Zhang: And also want whatever we discuss, you guys learn to be useful in your real jobs instead of just writing something for me to give you a grade. So, that is why, like, what is most rewarding to me, like, for example, this year, you know, we use, like, American Factory as a case, right? And one student, she actually grew up in a small town where the glass factory is.

[28:52]Maya Pomroy: Wow.

[28:53]Anthea Zhang: Even though she's no longer living there, but she said, she sent me an email, and, you know, I was so touched. While watching the movie, because I grew up there, I still have family, I still have friends living there. I say, "You know, I'm going to call you." Right? I'm going to call you to share your experience, right? So, she shared her friends' and family’s experience in the northern part of Michigan. And also another student, he grew up in West Virginia, where Japanese auto companies invested, right?

So, he shared the experience of the local communities with Japanese automakers. So, initially, you can see that, you know, the discussions in the class are so lively. It's not about textbook. I never use textbook for my EMBA classes, right? It's not even about, you know, cases. It's really about what is going on-

[29:51]Maya Pomroy: Right now.

[29:52]Anthea Zhang: ... yesterday, what's going on right now. And really, like, it is a space for people, everyone, me included, to share their own perspectives and experiences. I think that is really the value of MBA, EMBA teaching.

[30:06]Maya Pomroy: So, in terms of uncertainty, and right now?

[30:09]Anthea Zhang: Yes, exactly. You know, again, you think about, again, the topic of my class is global strategy, right? Every day, you know, I never lack, you know, topics and real-life cases to discuss in my class.

[30:25]Maya Pomroy: So, you have lots of material to work with.

[30:28]Anthea Zhang: Yes, yes. That's why, you know, basically, the first class, like before the first class, I updated my slides. I said, "You know, what's going on now? You know, what are key points? You know, I prepared until 2:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m., and class starts at like 8:00 a.m. So, you know, that's how I manage the first class. But after that, you know, it's just good.

[30:50]Maya Pomroy: So, how do you manage that sort of uncertainty? Because every day it's something new and something different, and it's global, and it's... I mean, it's a lot.

[31:01]Anthea Zhang: That's a lot. I think the first thing is that don't panic, because, you know, again, especially in today's environment, right, geopolitics, AI, this and that, right? You know, you open the news, open your apps, there's just so many things. You're bombarded by everything, right?

The first thing is that, and honestly, all of us in this room, we are so young, right, compared to history, right? Given all the challenges, the life, the world we are facing is still so good compared to what human beings have experienced, right, which is lucky in the past seven decades, right? The world was so good. That's why I said, "Wow, it suddenly changed." But if you think about it, we can learn from history, right? I think the first one is really, don't panic.

[31:52]Maya Pomroy: Don't panic.

[31:53]Anthea Zhang: Don't panic, right?

[31:56]Maya Pomroy: No bunkers to build, don't build bunkers.

[31:58]Anthea Zhang: Not yet, right? Second point I want to emphasize is that, you know, that's why good theories matter. Now, you know, maybe the phenomenon changes a lot, but there are some fundamental logics there. That's why in my class, you know, even though I want to bring in people's real experience into the classroom, I use, you know, today's headlines as case discussions, but in the end it still says that, you know, here are the frameworks.

I'll give one example, like political risk, right? How companies can manage political risk. Think about it, especially we are in Houston, right? You guys are senior managers in oil and gas industry, right? It's hard just to be in Houston or in the United States, right, for every company. It's not all true. You just have to have access overseas. You just have to manage overseas subsidiaries, right? So, the question is that, you know, what are the fundamental principles you can use to manage global, you know, political risk? If you still remember, I developed six approaches. I'm not going to ask you, if you [inaudible 00:33:14].

[33:14]Maya Pomroy: No, I was going to ask you to remind everyone.

[33:16]Anthea Zhang: Yes. You know, it's like, you know, I developed, you know, seven approaches to manage political risk. I say that, you know, those three approaches will allow you to reduce the benefits, you know, host countries will receive from your investment if they intervene in your business.

Those three approaches will increase their cost of intervening in your business, right? Of course, at a certain point, you know, for example, we observed when the Ukraine, you know, thing has happened, a lot of companies just moved out of Russia. That is really an extreme situation.

But in most situations, you know, even though political risk is risky, is costly, but still manageable, you just need to know what are the fundamental strategies that can be used to mitigate political risk. So, that's really how, you know, critical thinking, how, you know, good theories, good logics matter, because it really allows people to have a framework to see, "Oh, this is what I face, right?" Those perspectives I can use to interpret the question, then come up with a solution.

[34:29]Maya Pomroy: Even for life.

[34:30]Anthea Zhang: Even for life.

[34:31]Maya Pomroy: Even in research, you know, to problem-solve issues that you have in life. That's wonderful words of advice, you know, you just need to step back and have the framework, and you just have to follow it.

[34:42]Anthea Zhang: Yeah.

[34:43]Maya Pomroy: So, in all of your research, what has been the one thing that has surprised you the most?

[34:50]Anthea Zhang: Interesting. Well, first of all, my research has quite a wide span. You know, I have talked about, like, CEO succession and, you know, corporate governance. I also do research about multinational companies and foreign debt-backed investments, as well as, you know, the gender and tech entrepreneurship agenda issue.

I have to say that what is surprising to me is, I can share, what is one of them? Is about, for example, CEO and CFO language use, right? You know, we found that CEO and CFOs, you know, if they use more similar language, they tend to make poor decisions. But the question is that, you know, why are they similar? Is that because, you know, we are similar, so you, as CEO, hire me as a CFO, or because we naturally converge in the middle, or because you are the boss, I intentionally imitate you?

So, we did a very, very careful analysis to see, you know, which scenario is the real mechanism. We actually found that it is the CFO intentionally imitating the CEO.

[36:18]Maya Pomroy: Oh, okay.

[36:18]Anthea Zhang: Yeah. So, it is just very... of course, a lot of other things, you know, interesting ideas for you. This one is interesting, too, yeah.

[36:25]Maya Pomroy: So, what is next for you? What research are you working on that you could share that we can look forward to?

[36:30]Anthea Zhang: Yeah, you know, of course, now everybody talks about AI, right? So, one direction...

[36:37]Maya Pomroy: Didn't even get to that.

[36:37]Anthea Zhang: Yeah, I know. One direction for my research is actually how companies should design AI to improve their online sales performance.

[36:50]Maya Pomroy: Their own performance?

[36:51]Anthea Zhang: Yes. For example, like, I don't like to go to shopping malls. I like online shopping.

[36:58]Maya Pomroy: Same.

[36:58]Anthea Zhang: Many ladies probably like it, right? So, when you do online shopping, you know, you ask questions, like agents answer your questions. Now, most companies use AI as agents, right?

So, you know, now the tools allow companies to customize the AI agent. Some of the time, it actually can make a joke, just behave and sound like a human being. Like, for example, "Maya, you know, what kind do you like?" It really sounds more like a human being. So, we are interested in that, you know, compared to just mechanical, you know, function of customer service, how about a human-like AI customer service? Does that help a potential shopper to finish a purchase or not?

Our findings suggest that it really depends upon the cultural background of the customer. For example, if I am from a, you know, culture with bigger power distance, I tend to say, "Hey, you know, I'm here to spend money, you are supposed to help me, who are you to make a joke with me?"

So, but in more like equal, smaller distance cultures, customers actually like more human-like AI agents. They are more likely to finish their purchase. So, it's very interesting. A lot of, you know, interesting questions, it's not relevant 10 years ago. Oh, we just did not have the right tools, right, data to study it.

But now suddenly, you know, it just opens up so many great opportunities for us, not only just to do academic research, but also help managers, help businesses to solve their real problems.

[38:46]Maya Pomroy: Hmm. Okay, final question. So, for students that leave and graduate from Rice and finish the EMBA program-

[38:53]Anthea Zhang: Yes.

[38:53]Maya Pomroy: ... what do you hope that they leave with?

[38:53]Anthea Zhang: You know, of course, I want them to leave with, like, toolbox. My six approaches for political risk management is one of them, right? I certainly want them to walk away with a toolbox, right, with all the frameworks, right, like concepts in the toolbox.

Then, when they face challenging issues, they can go back to the toolbox and say, "I have tools here, right? Don't panic. Some of your tools can help me to think through those challenges, come up with solutions." But more than that, I want them to walk away remembering that they have a home here. They have a community here. So, whenever they have challenges, they have good news to share, this is a place for them to come back. If they have challenges, you know, to address, this is also the home base for them to come back.

Indeed, one year ago, last April, in the reunion, you know, I was elected by Jones School alumni to be the speaker to deliver the last lecture, you know, I was so honored to deliver that speech. And several former students texted me emails in there, and I got a notice, "What's going on? Why is it your last lecture?" I said, "I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving." Okay? That's just the name of the lecture.

It means what you are going to say to your students if that is your last lecture. You know, indeed, the conclusion of my last lecture is that, well, of course, we want to help others, we want to make the world a better place. My number one suggestion is that make yourself a better person. Make yourself a stronger person and a happier person, and use that as a base to help others, to make the world a better place.

[41:00]Maya Pomroy: Well, I don't think we can end with anything better than that. Thank you so much, Dr. Zhang, for your time and for your insight. It has been a wonderful evening to get just a little taste.

[41:12]Anthea Zhang: Thank you, Maya.

[41:13]Maya Pomroy: Thank you.

Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can continue your learning with Rice Business Executive Education, including programs led by Anthea Zhang, like Executive Leadership for Women and Energy Transition Strategy, as well as many other offerings for today's leaders.

You can find more on these programs and more episodes of our podcast at business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Brian Jackson.

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