As corporate value has become more intangible, leaders have less control over how their organizations are perceived. Anastasiya Zavyalova explains what that means for reputation strategy.
As corporate value has become more intangible, leaders have less control over how their organizations are perceived. Anastasiya Zavyalova explains what that means for reputation strategy.
In this Q&A, Professor Zavyalova discusses why reputation has become a core strategic concern and how social media, polarization and AI are changing the way people judge companies.
For much of the 20th century, companies could shape their reputations more deliberately, with more time to respond to emerging issues and greater control over how information reached the public. Traditional media served as gatekeepers, and crises unfolded over days or weeks in newspapers and media broadcasts.
Those days are over. With the rise of social media, AI and online polarization, the traditional levers of reputation management have fragmented. Organizations are expected to manage relationships with shareholders, customers, employees, suppliers, the media, regulators and the public more quickly and directly than ever. At the same time, intangible assets like patents, trademarks, copyrights, branding, software, proprietary data, customer relationships, trade secrets and goodwill have risen in value, now accounting for over 90% of the market value of S&P 500 companies, up from 17% in 1975.
Rice Business professor Anastasiya Zavyalova studies how these forces are shaping “organizational social evaluations” — the collective judgments that audiences form about a company — into a core strategic concern. She recently co-edited the new Oxford Handbook of Organisational Social Evaluations, a 700-plus-page volume that brings together cross-disciplinary research and practitioner experience and provides critical insight for business managers and executives.
Congratulations on the release of the new Oxford Handbook. Can you tell us about it?
The project came out of conversations at the University of Oxford’s Centre for Corporate Reputation, where I’m an International Fellow. It brings together scholars from different disciplines, but the Center also invites practitioners. We meet once a year for a reputation symposium.
At one of those meetings, we were talking about research on what we now call social evaluations of organizations. Really, what that means is: How do people form judgments about companies and organizations? How do companies build relationships with stakeholders? How do they manage the way stakeholders think about them, especially in the age of social media and AI?
In the 1970s, top companies’ market value came from tangible assets: factories, equipment, machinery — everything you physically owned. But in the past 25 years or so, company valuation has become increasingly intangible, including just the public’s belief in the company’s future earnings. What do investors think? What do shareholders believe they will get out of this company? Can you deliver on the promise? A big part of that is reputation, or what people believe about your organization and your leadership.
You can see it in acquisitions, because that is one of the rare moments when someone actually puts a dollar amount on what they believe a company is worth. When Facebook bought WhatsApp for $19 billion, for example, most of the purchase price was goodwill. It wasn’t the servers or the physical things they owned. It was, essentially, belief that the company would provide value in the future. From a practitioner perspective, that is why this area is important. Do stakeholders trust your company to deliver value?
We realized that this research has just skyrocketed. The research has proliferated over the last two decades, but there was not one go-to source. The ambition of the book was to put scholarly and practitioner minds together in one place.
It sounds like the speed of our communications is one of the primary challenges leaders face today.
Years ago, companies had more breathing room. In the 1980s, when an oil spill happened, company leadership had time to figure out a communications strategy and what they were going to say. Now, if a major oil spill happens, the news can spread all over the world in a matter of seconds. As a leader, you have to be ready to deliver your message.
Companies that want to be prepared have strategies in place for different scenarios. Some have what they call war rooms. They practice: If this happens, what is the message? For a large company, inevitably something will happen, so you need to be ready.
But this is where the fundamentals still matter. If you actually do what you do well, you can withstand a crisis that is brewing on social media. Your underlying business should be strong. And you have to be consistent, both across stakeholders and over time. You cannot communicate one thing to employees and something else to the public because the internal message can also become public. If you are consistent, you can build a strong reputation, and that becomes a safety net when a crisis hits.
Social media seems to make company scandals easier to learn about but somehow also easier to forget about. Is that the case?
I think social media and now AI have contributed to two countervailing forces. On one hand, news cycles have sped up so much that when something new happens, we often forget what happened only a week or so ago. Very few stories keep going in the media for long.
On the other hand, digital technology has preserved an archive of everything companies have said or done. When a company does something today, it’s easy to go back and hold it accountable for actions in the past. Even if you erase something from your website, someone may have taken a screenshot. The digital history of each company is now preserved forever.
That makes social evaluations more challenging to manage, because you can be held accountable for past deeds even as information about a new crisis is spreading almost instantly.
If stakeholder perceptions are that impactful, doesn’t that encourage companies to focus on looking good instead of actually performing well?
Some companies do that, but I think that strategy will backfire, and quite quickly, especially in the era of social media. It’s more and more costly to be inauthentic. Employees will sense it right away. They are often the first stakeholders who know that what you are saying diverges completely from what you are actually doing.
Eventually, that gap can backfire publicly. Employees can leak information confidentially or anonymously. Then investors may start asking: Is turnover going to increase? Are the most valuable employees going to competitors? It all trickles down. Enron was a great example of this.
If you are consistent, you can build a strong reputation, and that becomes a safety net when a crisis hits.
In some of the research, we refer to this as the reputation-identity gap. Identity is who you truly are. Reputation is what others believe you are. The larger the gap, the more troubling it is, the more like a house of cards your company becomes. If the goal is sustainable competitive advantage, you want your words to match your actions.
One way to close that gap is to make fewer rosy public declarations. Another, and I think the one many leaders aspire to, is to make the internal workings of the company as good as what they publicly declare them to be. That is more sustainable.
Does polarization make that harder to do? How should a company think about taking public positions when it knows it cannot please everyone?
You can see evidence of how much more polarized the United States has become in polling on where Democrats and Republicans stand on different issues. If you look back to the 1990s, the means of those distributions were much closer together. Now they are much farther apart. On many issues, the two sides have become much more divided.
I think there are two views on this question, and there is no right or wrong answer. Ultimately, each CEO or manager decides what feels right.
One view is: These are my values. I am going to stand by them. If I lose customers or investors, so be it. Patagonia is a good example. Chick-fil-A is another. You know an issue will be polarizing, but you are willing to have a smaller group of loyal followers.
The other view is: I am not going to take stances. I am going to make a product and run a good company. In recent years, I have had students say, why would I care what the company thinks about every social issue? I want a paycheck, a good salary, a stable work environment and decent co-workers.
I think some leaders are being prudent and deciding not to take stances regardless of their personal beliefs. But it is a conundrum. On one hand, you want to please more polarized stakeholders. On the other hand, you want as many customers and investors as possible. That is the landscape companies are in.
Where does AI fit into this now? Is it changing reputation management or mostly accelerating what was already happening?
I think everyone is still figuring this out. If we stay in the realm of social perceptions about companies, what AI has enabled is the production of content, lots of information about companies. What matters is that some of that information could be fake, and it can be produced very quickly.
People attend to emotional messages about companies and organizations they care about. So fake emotional content can spread very quickly online. You can be damaged for things you have not done. AI has also enabled deepfakes, where a company leader can appear to say something they never said. From a reputation management perspective, that fake information can have true, tangible consequences.
And it is not difficult to imagine how it spreads. You can tweak the emotionality, insert an issue you already know is polarizing and make it sound plausible. Just plausible enough.
Like any technology, there are pros and cons, and it can be used by bad actors. But in another forthcoming article, my co-authors and I argue that AI can be a very useful technology, but it has to co-evolve with human input. If we step in now and have a strong hand in how the technology is used, I think it could have more benefits than costs to society. But that is a big if.
As corporate value has become more intangible, leaders have less control over how their organizations are perceived. Anastasiya Zavyalova explains what that means for reputation strategy.
Many companies treat safety training as a compliance requirement. But new research shows that making safety a strategic priority can actually create value for employees, customers and shareholders.
Find out how Rice MBA student Ned Southwell '27 landed his summer internship at Phillips 66.
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Ned with the Phillips 66 Home Run Pump at Daikin Park
Internship Company:Phillips 66
Internship Department:Finance, U.S. Marketing
Internship Location: Houston, TX
Position Before MBA: Senior M&A Analyst at Hanger, Inc.
How did you secure your internship?
I secured my internship through Phillips 66’s formal on-campus recruiting process, organized by the Career Development Office.
What were your responsibilities during the internship?
I was the sole owner of a project exploring a potential brand strategy for placing refined products in one of Phillips 66’s key markets. I built a financial model and collaborated with stakeholders across U.S. marketing, finance and legal to shape the analysis before presenting my findings and recommended path forward to senior leadership.
How did your MBA coursework prepare you for this internship?
While I came into business school with a finance background, Core Finance (MGMT 543), Financial Accounting (MGMT 501) and Managerial Accounting (MGMT 502) sharpened the skills I needed to build a financial model addressing a real-world business problem. Energy Finance (MGMT 606) and Fundamentals of the Energy Industry (MGMT 610) equipped me with industry-specific knowledge to understand Phillips 66’s different operating segments and how they fit together, which helped me hit the ground running from day one.
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Ned and his colleagues at Phillips 66 Office
How did the internship align with your career goals?
My ultimate goal in attending business school is to transition into the energy industry long term and apply my finance background in a new context. My internship provided exactly what I was looking for, giving me direct exposure to Phillips 66’s integrated business model. Over my ten weeks, I was able to work on issues that are genuinely critical to today’s energy industry.
What was your favorite part of your internship experience?
My favorite part was the conversations I had with Rice Business alumni across the company. Hearing about the many different and interesting paths that they have taken within the company helped me sharpen how I’m thinking about my own post-MBA career goals.
What advice do you have for prospective students?
Leverage Rice Business’ deep alumni network early and often; it is one of the program’s biggest assets, and the willingness of alumni to make time for current and prospective students is something that you won’t find everywhere. Beyond that, take time to introspect before business school to understand the story that brought you here. Genuine interest in a company or industry, paired with real self-awareness, always shines through in the recruiting process and often sets candidates apart.
Ned Southwell is a Full-Time MBA student in the Class of 2027.
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It’s one of the most feared moments in anyone’s career – finding out you’ve just lost your job. After a layoff or an unexpected career transition, it can be hard to know where to start when it comes to finding your next opportunity, especially in the age of AI tracking systems and applicant pools of hundreds or even thousands of job candidates. So what can you do to stand out from the crowd?
On the inaugural episode of Owl Have You Know’s new “Field Notes” series, Marie Bergeron, director of career development for experienced hires and alumni at Rice Business, shares her top tips for landing a new job. Step by step, she walks co-host Brian Jackson ’21 through the processing, planning and networking stages of the job hunt.
[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. Today, we’re kicking off Field Notes, a new series where experts from the Rice Business community share practical insights that you can apply in your own work and life.
Today, I’m joined by Marie Bergeron, director of career development for experienced hires at Rice Business. Throughout her career, she’s coached executives, advised experienced professionals, and helped countless Rice MBAs navigate career transitions. In this episode, we’re tackling one of the most difficult moments in any career — being laid off. Marie shares a practical roadmap for the days after a layoff, from managing the emotional impact to building a strategy for finding your next opportunity.
Well, hi, Marie. Welcome to Owl Have You Know.
[00:48]Marie Bergeron: Thank you for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure.
[00:52]Brian Jackson: Oh, it's my honor, and you're our inaugural episode for Field Notes, so you know, your career, you've coached a ton of people. You've advised experienced professionals, and you've helped alumni navigate career transitions. I think probably the most difficult time for anyone really in a career is being laid off. What I'd like to do is try to make it as practical as possible. So, you know, let's imagine this morning, I got a call that I'd been laid off. Walk me through what happens next. What's the first thing that you would tell me to do if I called you?
[01:24]Marie Bergeron: To relax and process. You might be ecstatic because you hated what you were doing. You might be terrified because you have financial problems. You might be angry because you don't think you deserve this, right? So, you need to process first what's going on. Do not call everybody you know, but do let your significant others know.
You know, historically, people will withhold it for a while, and it's to nobody's benefit. But first of all, just give yourself time to process and let the people who matter know. That's number one. Number two, access your resources. If you've been laid off, your company may offer you outplacement services. That's how I got into this business. I was involved in outplacement, and those services are beneficial, and it's your last chance to spend some of the company's money because once you access the service, they've got to pay whatever it is. And some of those services are really helpful, some good databases and, you know, maybe even some administrative services and possibly a good advisor.
On that note, if you don't like your advisor, ask for another one. They don't want complaints, and you want to be sure you get somebody you can trust and who has some good experience. File for unemployment if your situation is such. Understand your severance package. Make sure your company, when they're called for a reference check, that they will say that you're eligible for rehire because people worry, worry, worry about reference checks, and all that a reference checker can really ask is dates of employment, last title, and is he or she eligible for rehire? And that's a very important question.
So, you negotiate that before you sign any separation documents to make sure that you're not going to be seen as somebody who was fired for cause, and that's the only reason they should not give you an eligible-for-rehire. So, you go to all your resources, make sure that you know what's available to you. That's first. It also gives you time to, kind of, calm down a little bit and understand that you're not in a desperate situation. Most of the time you'll get some sort of severance, and most people have some sort of cushion. What you don't want to do is frantically start applying for jobs that make no sense for you with a resume that's not going to get you there anyway and further frustrate yourself. Then make a plan.
And for that plan, you can engage me or the career center if you're a Rice MBA alum, or your outplacement firm if your company offers it, and make a plan. What kind of job am I looking for? Who am I going to contact? What company research do I need to do?
In today's world, we have all of our wonderful LLMs, whether it's ChatGPT or Claude or whoever your favorite is, and it's so easy to come up with the companies in the type of industry or whatever that you are interested in. You can even say, "Who has hired financial managers in the oil and gas industry in the last two years?" And they'll give you a list. It's absolutely amazing in terms of planning, right?
[05:01]Brian Jackson: Now, so this is the first 24 hours. You're just planning, understanding what do you have, where do you go, right? It's drawing the map.
[05:11]Marie Bergeron: Right. And that may even go for a week or so because you don't want to call people when whatever emotion is going on is going to show. You want to call people from a position of strength with an idea of what you want to ask them. You don't want to call and whine. You want to call and say, "Look, I've got this opportunity to try something new, to try a different company, try a different industry," whatever you're trying to do, and, "Can I walk through that with you? Can you brainstorm with me?" Anybody can brainstorm with you.
Anybody can walk you through ideas. Not everybody, and I'm going to guess very few people, have a job for you in their pocket. So, if you call and say, "I lost my job. Can you help me get a job?" My immediate answer would be, "Not really." You know, because what do I know? Whereas if you make a plan, you know what you want, you know the kind of companies you're interested in, and you have a record-keeping system set up so that when Brian refers me to Joan and Joan gives me a great lead and that lead helps me get a job, I can go back and honor Brian and tell him what a wonderful thing introducing me to Joan was, right? We think we can remember everything, but we can't, so you've got to have a good record-keeping system, right?
The other piece, of course, is getting your materials in order. And today probably your LinkedIn is more important than your resume. That headline better be a serious marketing statement. You have three lines. You need to sell the key selling points for your targeted role in that headline. People don't use that properly, but that's really the only selling point that a recruiter sees. But you get your resume in order. And by that, I mean you structure it such that it's very flexible, and you see it as a marketing document, not as a historical document.
So, you get your resume and your LinkedIn in order so that you're ready to implement the plan that you've made in a certain direction. A job search is so much easier if it's targeted. If you're just, kind of, throwing your resume out at different things, it's not going to work.
So, that's my initial stuff, and that could take you a week to get organized before you're ready to make your first call to ask someone to help you a little bit.
[07:51]Brian Jackson: So, we've made it through the first week, then we look at the first month?
[07:55]Marie Bergeron: Right. If you've just got two or three years of experience, the application approach has a little better chance of success. But if you're fairly deep into your career, and many of the people I work with are fairly deep into their careers, it's your network that's going to carry you.
So, let me tell you why. When a company posts a job description, you can bet a heck of a lot of people are going to apply for it, whether they're totally unqualified or totally overqualified for that role. So, hundreds, if not thousands, of applications come in, and companies can't cope with that, so they use an applicant tracking system, some sort of algorithmically-based, AI-based system to sort through resumes. And they use keywords, right?
The output is in the order of relevance, and relevance is number of keyword hits. And in today's world, most people have access to AI tools of some sort to be pretty good at those keywords, right? So, you want to be really good at it, and when it comes out, it is seen by a human, and a human is not going to read your resume. They're going to glance at it. And when they glance at it, those very important words better come up, either be bold, or bulleted, or highlighted in some way, so that human, who's usually an HR person and doesn't really know this role that well, can say good stack, bad stack without too much trouble, right?
So, if you do your keywords right, you do your AI with your resume right, and those words hit that human scanner in the eye, you've got a shot. But you're still just a piece of paper, and that's why networking becomes so important that you have to put your thumb on the scale and let someone in that organization know that you have applied for that role, or even before you apply. You need to talk to people, and maybe you find things out, very importantly, if it's a real role or not. Is it really an opening, or they already know who they're going to hire, but they just have to post it for EEO purposes or whatever? So, simply applying online is going to frustrate you almost certainly if your career is a little bit farther along.
So, you want to talk to people. People can give you ideas. People can give you referrals. People can give you support within their organization. There's sometimes two paths for resumes or applications, one is the online one, the other is a link that the employee can send you, and that's a referral stream of resumes, and clearly that's a better way to get in. So, you're constantly balancing, when was this job posted, and do I have time to find somebody internally before I apply, or do I apply and then assess the person? And either way is better than nothing, but optimal is if you can talk to them before you actually apply because they may have some great insider information that can help you decide to apply or not apply or to apply for a slightly different role.
[11:20]Brian Jackson: And then, like, getting in. Let's say you find a company you're interested in and you don't really know anyone there, but you're trying to get this edge. You can reach out to people and just call it an “informational.” Just say, "Hey, I'm considering something. Would love to pick your brain." Nine times out of 10, people don't respond, but the one out of 10-
[11:42]Marie Bergeron: One time.
[11:43]Brian Jackson: ... is all it takes.
[11:44]Marie Bergeron: Yeah. Well, there's levels of reaching out. A lot of people default to pinging people on LinkedIn, which to me is a last resort. If you can't find them any other way, sure, give it a shot. And a lot of people want to ping the VP level and up, or they want to ping the HR manager or whatever. And to me, it doesn't really matter as long as there's somebody internal willing to help you in some way. Sure, it'd be great to talk to the hiring manager, but sometimes they're not allowed to talk to applicants. They're supposed to follow a process.
But the process of talking to people, obviously, if you know someone personally, perfect. Secondly, if you know someone who knows someone internally and you contact that person and ask them if they'll help you with a warm referral, that's the next level. People don't use those second levels like they should. LinkedIn is very, very helpful when you know who that person knows that you know as well, and you can talk to them and ask them how well they know that person and are they willing to introduce you.
I do this all the time for the alumni and students with whom I work because sometimes it's the only way in. And I'm not their best, because I've met them here maybe. I've never worked with them. I've never been on a team with them so that I can speak to their skills and competencies. I can just speak to: They're smart, they're personable, they have this, that, and the other skill, you know?
And so, you try to find the person who knows you best. They're probably more willing to help anyway, and they can refer you and recommend you with a lot more credibility and someone that you just, kind of, met at a conference or something. But hey, if they're willing, you take whoever's willing to chat with you, whoever's willing to move you forward.
[13:43]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. So, what mistakes do you see people making immediately after a layoff?
[13:49]Marie Bergeron: Immediately start calling everybody they know and complaining and saying how they're angry and, you know... And nobody wants to talk to somebody like that. They move too quickly. But once you've had a chance to process, to plan, and to target, then you talk to the person. You say, "This happened to me. It's part of a big layoff. I understand why it happened. It actually created a great opportunity for me to look at something different, and here's what I'm looking at. Can you brainstorm with me about where there might be an opportunity for me to talk to someone at some company to try to get in?"
If you have a list of target companies, that's great because they say, "Oh, I know somebody at Meta. I can make an introduction for you." So, the mistake is jumping in in a panic state, looking bad, sounding desperate and not knowing what to ask for. It's like preparing for an interview, you know? You don't just go in there and interview. You do a lot of research. You plan what you're going to say. You practice what you're going to say so that you know the path you'll take. And moving too quickly is the biggest, biggest mistake.
[15:06]Brian Jackson: I feel like it's such an emotional experience, right? And what we're talking about is you have to almost bifurcate that, okay, I have my emotions, and you compartmentalize them, but then also you're trying to be strategic, and having the two meddle together isn't always great.
[15:23]Marie Bergeron: Compartmentalizing is a good skill to have, you know? And yes, there's emotions. There's people who immediately think they're going to be under an overpass with a tin cup, you know? I mean, you just instantly go to the worst outcome, and it, sort of, paralyzes people sometimes. So, if you can separate this as, “This is my job now, looking for a job is my job, and I'm going to have this face when I go to work, I dress differently than I do at home,” right? “And I'm going to have this attitude when I do this, and I can come home and cry and vent and whine, whatever I want to do. But I need to have my best foot forward when I'm talking to people so that they see me as a good possibility for whatever role I'm looking for.”
In the old days, losing your job was a shame, you know? You did something wrong because people were employed for life, so to speak. But in today's world of private equity takeovers and quarterly reports of profitability and whatnot, companies reorg constantly to make their financial outcomes align with what the market wants, right? And so, it happens so regularly now that it really shouldn't be as big an emotional outcome as it is, you know? And we do have to compartmentalize and say, "That's just business." Even though you think, "No, my boss hated me," or, "This one was talking about me, and that's why it happened." It happened, and you have to put that in one box, and the other box is executing on my plan to get to where I want to be.
And I've been at this long enough that I can honestly say that the vast majority of people wind up in a better spot than they were before. But it's a trudge. And I know it's hard. So, believe me, I do not diminish the emotional impact that this has. But I do know that those people who just dwell in it and stew in it don't do nearly as well as those who, using your word, can compartmentalize the task versus the emotion.
[17:42]Brian Jackson: Yeah. And I think if you dwell on it, what do you do? You lean into the habits that don't help you, which are staying home, being reclusive. None of that gets you out there having conversations.
[17:54]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. Don't stay at home in front of that computer screen. You do need to do research. You do need to look at LinkedIn. But use LinkedIn for research. Use LinkedIn to find people with whom to network. Use it to find out which companies are growing, and yes, look at jobs. That shows you where the activity is. That shows you a company that seems to be active, so maybe I go talk to people at that company. And do big and little networking. Big networking is being in a room with 150, 200 people, whatever, 30 people. Little networking is the one-on-one, where you try to talk to people individually. There's value in each, and you broaden your network when you go to the big networking.
So, go to industry luncheons. Eat that bad chicken, man, and just talk to the person next to you and whatnot. And if you just meet one person with one idea for you, it's worth it. And people say, "I don't know anybody." Perfect. You get to meet somebody new, right? And if you're not good at it, bring a friend who is good at it. I've told many students and alumni, "Come stand by me. I'll walk you through it. I'll introduce you to people. I'll make sure you circulate."
And I'm sure you have buddies that are good at that sort of thing. And this is a job. It's not meant to be comfortable. If you have to go out there and meet new people, that's part of your job. That's part of moving the ball forward so that you get the job within a reasonable timeframe. And realize that a reasonable timeframe is not two weeks. These hiring cycles are much longer now than they used to be. Five, six interviews is not uncommon.
[19:41]Brian Jackson: Even the onboarding... I mean, you could have the offer and then have to wait a month to even begin.
[19:45]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely, absolutely.
[19:46]Brian Jackson: I mean, it can take three to six months, I think is a reasonable window. And if it's outside of that, I mean, it just depends on what you're looking for, too, right?
[19:56]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. The market, the availability, the parameters you put on your search will increase the amount of time that it takes to get a job.
[20:06]Brian Jackson: So, when you're looking at someone, they come into your office, maybe it's been a few weeks since they've gotten the news, how can you pretty quickly tell that someone's doing their search from a place of panic rather than purpose?
[20:19]Marie Bergeron: Here's the killer, "I'll take anything." This is not helpful. This is not helpful. If you're networking and telling somebody, "I'll take any job," they have no idea how to help you. You have to say, "I think I want to go into supply chain or perhaps procurement," you know? And that way the people's minds can go to: Who do they know in those areas, right? And if you talk to them and you say, "Well, you know, I could do this, and I could do that," but give them a line that they can follow to help you.
So, if people tell me, "I'll take anything," or they tell me, "I've sent out 250 applications online," right? And I say, "Did you tailor?" And they go, "A little bit." I know that they're in trouble. If they try to use a service that sends resumes out, I know they're in trouble because they don't want to get involved in their own job search. They want it to be automatic, and there's nothing automatic about a job search. I have people tell me, "Can you give me the name of a placement agency who'll find a job for me?" And I say, "That doesn't exist." Placement agencies don't go find you a job. Placement companies work for a company to fill an opening. If you happen to look good for that opening, they'll talk to you. If not, they won't, and they probably won't remember you two weeks from now. So, if they do the kind of placement that you're interested in, you need to contact them on a regular basis.
There are services out there that say they'll, for the low, low fee of $5,000 or $10,000, they will guarantee to find you a job, and you need to run if they tell you that, because no one is going to find you a job. They will use all these methods that we've just talked about to try to assist you to do that, but nobody can do that. So, you are in charge of your job search, which is why I say plan, research and execute, because it is so much more fun. I know this is going to sound odd, but looking for a job can be fun. You reconnect with people you haven't talked to in a long time. You learn about opportunities you never thought that you might fit into. You feel, kind of, smart about the market.
And if you like people, you're having coffee with people, you're having lunch with people, instead of sitting in your office in front of a computer screen, and it literally can be fun. And I realize there's a financial thing, kind of, sitting on your shoulder. But it's something that you can actually enjoy if you're doing it right, because you'll get results. You'll have people that send you to someone that might actually interview you and whatnot.
[23:17]Brian Jackson: And you get to discover these new, unique opportunities that you wouldn't have considered otherwise.
[23:22]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely.
[23:24]Brian Jackson: But looking at jobs, re-entering the market, let's say you've done the application, now you've gotten the interview. How do you explain a layoff?
[23:33]Marie Bergeron: That is so easy. A layoff is an organizational thing. If you're not the only person that was fired that day, right? It is a reduction in force, it is a layoff. And if they say, you know, "Why are you not working at Chevron anymore?" "Well, there was a reorganization. A lot of different groups were impacted. They did the best they could. They treated us well. And, you know, I'm seeing it as an opportunity to try something different, like what we're talking about today, and that's why I'm excited." Again, in today's world where layoffs happen every day, that's not a bad thing. If you're fired for cause, that becomes a little bit of a problem, but we can work it.
[24:16]Brian Jackson: But we can work it. That's the thing. I think it's like the art of not... I don't want to say, “storytelling” because that almost acts like you're not telling the truth, but I think there are ways of using the right words to describe that.
[24:28]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. Articulation. Articulate. And on that point, Brian, people will say to me, "I don't have that experience." And I'll go, "Wait a minute. Didn't you do this and this and this?" Yes. Well, you called it this in this industry, in this role. They're calling it something else. Why don't you figure a way to talk about it in their terminology so that it makes sense? And that is a skill, I will say that. But you can work with people to have them help you, or work with AI, "I did this and this and this in the healthcare industry. How would I re-articulate it for this thing over in the oil and gas industry?"
And I promise you, AI will help you with the terminology. It's a matter of language. But you have to make the translation in your own head so that you believe it. So, if you're skeptical of yourself, start practicing it on yourself. Talk into Zoom.
[25:32]Brian Jackson: That's a great point!
[25:33]Marie Bergeron: Talking to your cell phone. Make yourself hear yourself, sell yourself in the language of the new role, and eventually it'll feel right.
[25:44]Brian Jackson: Yeah, and I mean, words truly matter, and picking the right one or the wrong one is critical.
[25:49]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely.
[25:50]Brian Jackson: You can be underselling yourself without knowing that you've done that just because you don't know how that word is used in the new industry.
[25:57]Marie Bergeron: Correct.
[25:58]Brian Jackson: So, I feel like a lot of folks asking for help is tough, right? And it feels almost like it's a sign of weakness. But you have a ton of resources in the office. Why is this so important to have advisors, mentors, to be asking people's opinions? Why is it the smartest thing you can do?
[26:18]Marie Bergeron: Because everybody comes from a different frame of reference. You're kind of stuck in a rut. I'm stuck in a rut, kind of, right? And if you give the same facts to different people, they will come up with totally different ideas and nuances that you didn't anticipate, or you didn't think about. So, it helps you refine, it helps you broaden as well how you look at certain things. And each of these people have a network, and each of these people have lived experiences. And what you're telling them will cause them to speak to you about something or refer you to somebody that never would've occurred if you were just running it around in your own head and your own network.
I worked in outplacement for many years, and I went to South Louisiana, to New Iberia, where these people who'd been laid off… these hands out in the oil and gas field. And I was doing a workshop for these people that were roustabouts and drilling managers and all this. And people were not believing what I said because they were very downcast because they didn't think they could get a job. Oil industry was low. And there was a young man in there. He said, "Now, wait a minute." He said, "I'm going to tell you something." He said, "This isn't the first time I got laid off. The last time I got laid off, I was devastated. And I went home, and I told my wife, and she said, 'Oh, honey, don't worry about that. We're going to go out tonight. We're going to have a nice dinner and celebrate.'" And he goes, "Well, what the heck?"
So, they got all dressed up. They called their babysitter, young lady. She comes over, and she said, "What are you all dressed up and going out in the middle of the week?" And they explained, "Well, I lost my job. I'm trying to cheer myself up." And so, they leave their kids, go out to dinner. When they come back, this little 15-year-old babysitter sits there with a list of two or three names and said, "My dad said you ought to call this guy and this guy because they might have a line on a job for you." And he said, "I got a job from one of those names within a week." He said, "In my right mind, I would not have called my 15-year-old babysitter and say, 'Hey, you got any ideas for me?'" But it worked out, right? So, talking to people is absolutely critical.
It also will keep you emotionally nourished. It is awful to sit at home unemployed while your spouse goes off to work, and you know, you go, "I've just applied to 20 jobs today. I can't do any more," right? It allows you to have this blend of activities that you have at work, right? If you go to the office, you do a lot of different things. So, it keeps you motivated, keeps you going, and it's going to move you towards your job. If I had a room full of about 50 people and I said, "How many of you in your last job change used networking in some form?" I can guarantee you 90% of the hands will go up. It's just not done through job application anymore.
[29:29]Brian Jackson: That's totally true. So, you've gone through all the steps here. You've actually, let's say this example we were working through earlier, I've gotten a new job. I probably don't feel super confident to negotiate on a salary. But how do you still do that? How do you broach that and push for more?
[29:47]Marie Bergeron: First of all, you've got to consider what you put on the application. Many online applications now ask you for a targeted salary or a salary range or whatever. So, try to remember and keep records. Like, you know, you have to keep good records. You have to have good naming protocols for your resumes and keeping track of your networking contacts, right? So, depending on what you put on that application, you know, if you gave a range and they were somewhere near the top of that range, you have a little less wiggle room than if they came in at the bottom of that range, right?
So, here's my approach to negotiating. I did a negotiation this week, and he wanted more vacation, more salary, and equity. I said, "Choose two. Don't be asking for three," right? But my approach is to look at the offer, look at the benefits, make a spreadsheet. Here's what I was making, here's what the offer is, both quantitatively and qualitatively, so you really do understand how much better or worse this offer is than what you had before, right? So that you have knowledge. You're not just flying off the handle here, right? Then check out some resources. Ask Claude or somebody, you know, what a salary range is for this kind of job with this size of company so that you, kind of, know where you are on it.
And let's say you do want to negotiate the salary. I suggest that you do all that stuff, and then you call whoever... Whose name is on the offer letter. You email them or call them and say, "Can I make a meeting so that I can discuss and clarify the offer? I'm very excited. I'm so excited about the offer, but I'd like to meet and iron out some details." Make an appointment. Don't just call someone and start negotiating, right?
And then you go through items. I call it clarifications and negotiations, right? So, you say, "It says here that my 401(k) starts three months." "Yes, that's true," right? And you go through the easy stuff. Then you get to the hard stuff, the salary and the bonus or whatever, and you say, "Is there any flexibility around compensation?" Right? You haven't said, "I want this, got to have that." I actually had somebody tell me that they told their boss that they've got a new mortgage and they can't afford it. It's not his problem, right? You know. "Is there any flexibility around the compensation?" And they have to say something. They have to say, "When we set a salary, that's it."
But mostly they'll say, "What are you thinking?" And you say, "Well, I've done a little research. When I put that I wanted 175, I didn't realize that I also did this, this, and this. So, I think for this job in the marketplace, a fair salary is more like 190." You can let it go at that. And they go, "Well, we'll go back. We'll talk about it," whatever. Or a range, you know, 185 to 200, right? And then you just go through each of those and see where there might be flexibility. There's not usually flexibility on commission structure. There's not usually flexibility on 401(k). Sometimes there's flexibility on PTO, sometimes there's not.
But usually there's 5% to 10% play in salary. It depends how you approach it. If you say, "I want, I need, I got to have," it's a lot different from saying, "Is there any flexibility?" And they might just say, "No, that's it. We stretched ourselves." At least you know at that point in time, right? But it's good for you to look at it very, very carefully. And things like 401(k) match, things like stock options and whatnot can make a big difference in the total package.
[33:41]Brian Jackson: Sure, it can.
[33:41]Marie Bergeron: And sometimes the salary that's equal or a little bit lower may be okay, you know.
[33:46]Brian Jackson: So, for our listeners, I mean, we could have folks who are happily employed or actively job searching. What's one thing that every professional could do to make their next career transition easier?
[33:57]Marie Bergeron: Network. Don't forget that there are other people out there just because you're happily employed. I see it all the time. People get fat and happy wherever they're working, and then something happens, you know? Companies reorganize all the time, and there you are, fat and happy. Your boss loves you. He's been your advocate all the way through, and then he leaves, and they put somebody else in, and you do not get along with that person, right?
And suddenly you've got to do something. If you are networking internally and externally all the time, when some of these upsets happen, it's not as scary because you know people who work at these companies and people in this other department and this other group that you can maybe move over to when this new boss is not what you want. So, think of people all the time, all the time. You know, I'm aging out over here, and a lot of the people I know here at Rice Business are retiring and moving on, so I've got to meet all these new younger people coming in so that I'm still embedded in the organization, and then they don't say, "Who's that short lady over there?" Right? You know, you need to, kind of, keep your network active so that you have resources internally and externally that you can access.
[35:23]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining me. This has been really informative and just a ton of fun, so thanks, Marie.
[35:32]Marie Bergeron: I found it great fun, too, and thank you for asking me.
[35:38]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.
Shared law school ties between judges and attorneys can influence court outcomes, according to research co-authored by Rice Business professor David Zhang, raising questions about impartiality and disclosure.
Rice Business professor David Zhang explains how low mortgage rates are keeping homeowners from selling, contributing to the housing market’s ongoing “sideways struggle” as rates remain elevated.
Meet Willa Tao, a twice-Rice graduate and senior associate in audit at PwC. Learn why she chose the Master of Accounting at Rice Business, what a day in her life looks like and her advice to prospective students.
Helen Huneycutt
Willa Tao knew that if she wanted to pursue a Master of Accounting, it would have to be at Rice. When she applied for the program, she had just graduated from Rice University with a B.S. in Economics — during which she discovered an unexpected appreciation for accounting. On deciding her next career move, she was drawn to the Rice MAcc because of its tight-knit community of support, both among students and faculty.
Here’s what ultimately encouraged her to pursue a MAcc at Rice Business and begin a career in accounting with a Big Four firm.
Can you tell us a little about your background?
I did my undergrad at Rice University, majoring in economics with a minor in business. I graduated a semester early in December 2022 so that I could experience a “busy season” internship before I started the MAcc in August 2023.
What led you to pursue a MAcc?
I didn’t really know what I wanted to do when I started my freshman year of college, but I really liked the accounting classes I took as an undergraduate student. I had a very practical mindset about the future and valued the stability an accounting career would offer, so I chose the Master of Accounting.
I’ve been working for a few years now, and I don’t think I realized I would enjoy accounting — especially the analytical aspects of accounting — as much as I do. While some of the work includes routine transactions, there are also a lot of areas of accounting that require judgment, such as receiving a contract, reading it, comparing its key terms to accounting standards and arguing a viewpoint — which I really enjoy. If I could go back in time and talk to my younger self, I’d tell her, “Don’t worry, you will be glad you did the MAcc.”
Rice was the only place I applied to pursue my MAcc. I really liked all of my business professors in undergrad, and I knew a lot of them taught in the master’s programs. I also really liked that Rice has a small class size — I didn’t want to be in a huge program. Professor Ben Lansford, director of the MAcc program, is another reason. You can tell he wants the absolute best for the students in the program, so you know you’re in good hands.
During my undergrad, there were also a couple MAcc students who were involved in the student ministry that I was part of. Through our mutual friends, I was able to talk to them, ask them questions about the program and see how it paid off for them before I took the leap myself.
How would you describe your experience at Rice?
Image
Willa and fellow MAcc alumni at a PwC holiday party.
A blur! In a good way, for sure, but it does fly by.
The Rice MAcc curriculum packs a lot of academics into one year, but you get really close with your cohort. One of the biggest things that stuck with me was the friendships I made, which I am so grateful for. In some ways, I wish the program was longer, like how the MBA is two years, just to spend a second year with the people in my class. On the bright side, a good number of us went to the same company, so I get to see them pretty often.
What was your most applicable class?
One course taught by Professor K. Ramesh stood out to me in particular because it made me feel like I wasn’t just learning from a textbook — I got to work directly with accounting guidance. For example, in accounting, there are sets of standards (or “generally accepted accounting principles”) that a board, like the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB), writes. They can be very complex at first glance. Normally, when you take an accounting class in college, the textbook translates the official standard in a way that makes it easier to teach and understand.
Professor Ramesh’s class was the first in which I actually got to look at the original, board-written standards myself instead of reading the pre-digested textbook explanation. It was very interesting to me, and as it turns out, this practice is very relevant to what you do on the job.
Another applicable aspect of the MAcc curriculum is the emphasis on helping students develop professional communication skills, like creating PowerPoint presentations, giving oral presentations and writing memos. These are valuable skills no matter where you end up, but especially in accounting roles when communicating with clients or presenting results to leadership and other stakeholders.
How did the Rice MAcc prepare you for your career at PwC?
The Rice MAcc is very intentional about helping students recruit.
When I applied, I knew I wanted to do an internship at one of the Big Four firms, but I didn't know which one. I reached out to Professor Lansford about this, and he gave me advice and resources on MAcc recruiting events. Because of Rice Business’ established relationships with the Big Four, it is convenient for students to network, meet alumni and recruit at these companies. Rice Business will also help you network with different companies to decide the best path for you.
In some ways, I wish the program was longer, like how the MBA is two years, just to spend a second year with the people in my class.
Willa Tao
Rice MAcc Alumnus
What are some of your responsibilities? What does a “day in the life” look like for you?
I’m a senior associate in audit at PwC. Now that I’m in my second year, my work is more self-directed, so each morning, I check the status of each of my projects, outline my to-do list for the day and help assign tasks to any first-year employees who are on the projects.
When I’m conducting an audit, I generally request documents from the client and collaborate with them to better clarify their situation. Sometimes that’s via email, sometimes it’s over a call. At my company, there are a lot of people around my age, and the culture is very collaborative. Everything you do is on a team. I think at every Big Four company, there’s a very strong emphasis on mentorship, but especially at PwC. I’ve really appreciated that, because you’re always encouraged to ask questions and learn new things.
Favorite part of your job?
One of my favorite parts of my job has been getting to see more complex accounting issues. When I first started, my tasks weren’t that complicated. But at PwC, you very quickly learn the ropes and gain new responsibilities, which I’ve really enjoyed. When I started my second year at the company, I realized it wasn’t going to be anything like the year prior.
I’m trying to understand the long-term value of a MAcc. How has it paid off for you since graduating?
The most obvious and maybe valuable aspect of Rice’s MAcc is that it can help you prepare for the CPA exam. Since I wasn’t an accounting undergraduate, I didn’t have the educational course requirements that you have to take in order to sit for the CPA exam. The Rice MAcc curriculum allows you to both complete the applicable accounting education requirements and provides a lot of the knowledge that you need for the CPA exam.
I also know that new employees are often offered a bonus if they pass all four sections of the CPA exam. Passing the exam and obtaining a CPA license are both highly valued by firms and can open many doors for you in the accounting and finance worlds.
See how the MAcc has paid off for another Rice alum:
Do you have any advice for someone considering pursuing a MAcc?
Don’t be afraid to reach out to people who’ve gone through the Rice MAcc program.
Whether they’re a mutual connection or just someone you come across on LinkedIn, reach out. Before I started the program, talking to Rice MAcc alumni gave me a better understanding of the program and its outcomes. Alumni will be honest with you about their experience and help you discern if a MAcc is the right step for you.
Meet Willa Tao, a twice-Rice graduate and senior associate in audit at PwC. Learn why she chose the Master of Accounting at Rice Business, what a day in her life looks like and her advice to prospective students.
A Master of Accounting (MAcc) degree from Rice Business opens door to a wide range of career opportunities, from in-demand roles at accounting firms to corporate accounting, finance and advisory roles across industries. Here’s where it can take you.
Interested in pursuing a career in audit or tax? The Rice Master of Accounting consistently places students in both fields, allowing them to explore opportunities and build their network along the way.
Rice Business professor Vikas Mittal says Buc-ee’s has developed deep customer commitment, with visits becoming an emotional and habitual ritual. He predicts loyalty will grow as Buc-ee’s expands nationwide.
