[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. Today, we’re kicking off Field Notes, a new series where experts from the Rice Business community share practical insights that you can apply in your own work and life.

Today, I’m joined by Marie Bergeron, director of career development for experienced hires at Rice Business. Throughout her career, she’s coached executives, advised experienced professionals, and helped countless Rice MBAs navigate career transitions. In this episode, we’re tackling one of the most difficult moments in any career — being laid off.  Marie shares a practical roadmap for the days after a layoff, from managing the emotional impact to building a strategy for finding your next opportunity.

Well, hi, Marie. Welcome to Owl Have You Know.

[00:48]Marie Bergeron: Thank you for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure.

[00:52]Brian Jackson: Oh, it's my honor, and you're our inaugural episode for Field Notes, so you know, your career, you've coached a ton of people. You've advised experienced professionals, and you've helped alumni navigate career transitions. I think probably the most difficult time for anyone really in a career is being laid off. What I'd like to do is try to make it as practical as possible. So, you know, let's imagine this morning, I got a call that I'd been laid off. Walk me through what happens next. What's the first thing that you would tell me to do if I called you?

[01:24]Marie Bergeron: To relax and process. You might be ecstatic because you hated what you were doing. You might be terrified because you have financial problems. You might be angry because you don't think you deserve this, right? So, you need to process first what's going on. Do not call everybody you know, but do let your significant others know.

You know, historically, people will withhold it for a while, and it's to nobody's benefit. But first of all, just give yourself time to process and let the people who matter know. That's number one. Number two, access your resources. If you've been laid off, your company may offer you outplacement services. That's how I got into this business. I was involved in outplacement, and those services are beneficial, and it's your last chance to spend some of the company's money because once you access the service, they've got to pay whatever it is. And some of those services are really helpful, some good databases and, you know, maybe even some administrative services and possibly a good advisor.

On that note, if you don't like your advisor, ask for another one. They don't want complaints, and you want to be sure you get somebody you can trust and who has some good experience. File for unemployment if your situation is such. Understand your severance package. Make sure your company, when they're called for a reference check, that they will say that you're eligible for rehire because people worry, worry, worry about reference checks, and all that a reference checker can really ask is dates of employment, last title, and is he or she eligible for rehire? And that's a very important question.

So, you negotiate that before you sign any separation documents to make sure that you're not going to be seen as somebody who was fired for cause, and that's the only reason they should not give you an eligible-for-rehire. So, you go to all your resources, make sure that you know what's available to you. That's first. It also gives you time to, kind of, calm down a little bit and understand that you're not in a desperate situation. Most of the time you'll get some sort of severance, and most people have some sort of cushion. What you don't want to do is frantically start applying for jobs that make no sense for you with a resume that's not going to get you there anyway and further frustrate yourself. Then make a plan.

And for that plan, you can engage me or the career center if you're a Rice MBA alum, or your outplacement firm if your company offers it, and make a plan. What kind of job am I looking for? Who am I going to contact? What company research do I need to do?

In today's world, we have all of our wonderful LLMs, whether it's ChatGPT or Claude or whoever your favorite is, and it's so easy to come up with the companies in the type of industry or whatever that you are interested in. You can even say, "Who has hired financial managers in the oil and gas industry in the last two years?" And they'll give you a list. It's absolutely amazing in terms of planning, right?

[05:01]Brian Jackson: Now, so this is the first 24 hours. You're just planning, understanding what do you have, where do you go, right? It's drawing the map.

[05:11]Marie Bergeron: Right. And that may even go for a week or so because you don't want to call people when whatever emotion is going on is going to show. You want to call people from a position of strength with an idea of what you want to ask them. You don't want to call and whine. You want to call and say, "Look, I've got this opportunity to try something new, to try a different company, try a different industry," whatever you're trying to do, and, "Can I walk through that with you? Can you brainstorm with me?" Anybody can brainstorm with you.

Anybody can walk you through ideas. Not everybody, and I'm going to guess very few people, have a job for you in their pocket. So, if you call and say, "I lost my job. Can you help me get a job?" My immediate answer would be, "Not really." You know, because what do I know? Whereas if you make a plan, you know what you want, you know the kind of companies you're interested in, and you have a record-keeping system set up so that when Brian refers me to Joan and Joan gives me a great lead and that lead helps me get a job, I can go back and honor Brian and tell him what a wonderful thing introducing me to Joan was, right? We think we can remember everything, but we can't, so you've got to have a good record-keeping system, right?

The other piece, of course, is getting your materials in order. And today probably your LinkedIn is more important than your resume. That headline better be a serious marketing statement. You have three lines. You need to sell the key selling points for your targeted role in that headline. People don't use that properly, but that's really the only selling point that a recruiter sees. But you get your resume in order. And by that, I mean you structure it such that it's very flexible, and you see it as a marketing document, not as a historical document.

So, you get your resume and your LinkedIn in order so that you're ready to implement the plan that you've made in a certain direction. A job search is so much easier if it's targeted. If you're just, kind of, throwing your resume out at different things, it's not going to work.

So, that's my initial stuff, and that could take you a week to get organized before you're ready to make your first call to ask someone to help you a little bit. 

[07:51]Brian Jackson: So, we've made it through the first week, then we look at the first month? 

[07:55]Marie Bergeron: Right. If you've just got two or three years of experience, the application approach has a little better chance of success. But if you're fairly deep into your career, and many of the people I work with are fairly deep into their careers, it's your network that's going to carry you.

So, let me tell you why. When a company posts a job description, you can bet a heck of a lot of people are going to apply for it, whether they're totally unqualified or totally overqualified for that role. So, hundreds, if not thousands, of applications come in, and companies can't cope with that, so they use an applicant tracking system, some sort of algorithmically-based, AI-based system to sort through resumes. And they use keywords, right?

The output is in the order of relevance, and relevance is number of keyword hits. And in today's world, most people have access to AI tools of some sort to be pretty good at those keywords, right? So, you want to be really good at it, and when it comes out, it is seen by a human, and a human is not going to read your resume. They're going to glance at it. And when they glance at it, those very important words better come up, either be bold, or bulleted, or highlighted in some way, so that human, who's usually an HR person and doesn't really know this role that well, can say good stack, bad stack without too much trouble, right?

So, if you do your keywords right, you do your AI with your resume right, and those words hit that human scanner in the eye, you've got a shot. But you're still just a piece of paper, and that's why networking becomes so important that you have to put your thumb on the scale and let someone in that organization know that you have applied for that role, or even before you apply. You need to talk to people, and maybe you find things out, very importantly, if it's a real role or not. Is it really an opening, or they already know who they're going to hire, but they just have to post it for EEO purposes or whatever? So, simply applying online is going to frustrate you almost certainly if your career is a little bit farther along.

So, you want to talk to people. People can give you ideas. People can give you referrals. People can give you support within their organization. There's sometimes two paths for resumes or applications, one is the online one, the other is a link that the employee can send you, and that's a referral stream of resumes, and clearly that's a better way to get in. So, you're constantly balancing, when was this job posted, and do I have time to find somebody internally before I apply, or do I apply and then assess the person? And either way is better than nothing, but optimal is if you can talk to them before you actually apply because they may have some great insider information that can help you decide to apply or not apply or to apply for a slightly different role.

[11:20]Brian Jackson: And then, like, getting in. Let's say you find a company you're interested in and you don't really know anyone there, but you're trying to get this edge. You can reach out to people and just call it an “informational.” Just say, "Hey, I'm considering something. Would love to pick your brain." Nine times out of 10, people don't respond, but the one out of 10-

[11:42]Marie Bergeron: One time.

[11:43]Brian Jackson: ... is all it takes.

[11:44]Marie Bergeron: Yeah. Well, there's levels of reaching out. A lot of people default to pinging people on LinkedIn, which to me is a last resort. If you can't find them any other way, sure, give it a shot. And a lot of people want to ping the VP level and up, or they want to ping the HR manager or whatever. And to me, it doesn't really matter as long as there's somebody internal willing to help you in some way. Sure, it'd be great to talk to the hiring manager, but sometimes they're not allowed to talk to applicants. They're supposed to follow a process.

But the process of talking to people, obviously, if you know someone personally, perfect. Secondly, if you know someone who knows someone internally and you contact that person and ask them if they'll help you with a warm referral, that's the next level. People don't use those second levels like they should. LinkedIn is very, very helpful when you know who that person knows that you know as well, and you can talk to them and ask them how well they know that person and are they willing to introduce you.

I do this all the time for the alumni and students with whom I work because sometimes it's the only way in. And I'm not their best, because I've met them here maybe. I've never worked with them. I've never been on a team with them so that I can speak to their skills and competencies. I can just speak to: They're smart, they're personable, they have this, that, and the other skill, you know?

And so, you try to find the person who knows you best. They're probably more willing to help anyway, and they can refer you and recommend you with a lot more credibility and someone that you just, kind of, met at a conference or something. But hey, if they're willing, you take whoever's willing to chat with you, whoever's willing to move you forward.

[13:43]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. So, what mistakes do you see people making immediately after a layoff?

[13:49]Marie Bergeron: Immediately start calling everybody they know and complaining and saying how they're angry and, you know... And nobody wants to talk to somebody like that. They move too quickly. But once you've had a chance to process, to plan, and to target, then you talk to the person. You say, "This happened to me. It's part of a big layoff. I understand why it happened. It actually created a great opportunity for me to look at something different, and here's what I'm looking at. Can you brainstorm with me about where there might be an opportunity for me to talk to someone at some company to try to get in?"

If you have a list of target companies, that's great because they say, "Oh, I know somebody at Meta. I can make an introduction for you." So, the mistake is jumping in in a panic state, looking bad, sounding desperate and not knowing what to ask for. It's like preparing for an interview, you know? You don't just go in there and interview. You do a lot of research. You plan what you're going to say. You practice what you're going to say so that you know the path you'll take. And moving too quickly is the biggest, biggest mistake.

[15:06]Brian Jackson: I feel like it's such an emotional experience, right? And what we're talking about is you have to almost bifurcate that, okay, I have my emotions, and you compartmentalize them, but then also you're trying to be strategic, and having the two meddle together isn't always great.

[15:23]Marie Bergeron: Compartmentalizing is a good skill to have, you know? And yes, there's emotions. There's people who immediately think they're going to be under an overpass with a tin cup, you know? I mean, you just instantly go to the worst outcome, and it, sort of, paralyzes people sometimes. So, if you can separate this as, “This is my job now, looking for a job is my job, and I'm going to have this face when I go to work, I dress differently than I do at home,” right? “And I'm going to have this attitude when I do this, and I can come home and cry and vent and whine, whatever I want to do. But I need to have my best foot forward when I'm talking to people so that they see me as a good possibility for whatever role I'm looking for.”

In the old days, losing your job was a shame, you know? You did something wrong because people were employed for life, so to speak. But in today's world of private equity takeovers and quarterly reports of profitability and whatnot, companies reorg constantly to make their financial outcomes align with what the market wants, right? And so, it happens so regularly now that it really shouldn't be as big an emotional outcome as it is, you know? And we do have to compartmentalize and say, "That's just business." Even though you think, "No, my boss hated me," or, "This one was talking about me, and that's why it happened." It happened, and you have to put that in one box, and the other box is executing on my plan to get to where I want to be.

And I've been at this long enough that I can honestly say that the vast majority of people wind up in a better spot than they were before. But it's a trudge. And I know it's hard. So, believe me, I do not diminish the emotional impact that this has. But I do know that those people who just dwell in it and stew in it don't do nearly as well as those who, using your word, can compartmentalize the task versus the emotion.

[17:42]Brian Jackson: Yeah. And I think if you dwell on it, what do you do? You lean into the habits that don't help you, which are staying home, being reclusive. None of that gets you out there having conversations.

[17:54]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. Don't stay at home in front of that computer screen. You do need to do research. You do need to look at LinkedIn. But use LinkedIn for research. Use LinkedIn to find people with whom to network. Use it to find out which companies are growing, and yes, look at jobs. That shows you where the activity is. That shows you a company that seems to be active, so maybe I go talk to people at that company. And do big and little networking. Big networking is being in a room with 150, 200 people, whatever, 30 people. Little networking is the one-on-one, where you try to talk to people individually. There's value in each, and you broaden your network when you go to the big networking.

So, go to industry luncheons. Eat that bad chicken, man, and just talk to the person next to you and whatnot. And if you just meet one person with one idea for you, it's worth it. And people say, "I don't know anybody." Perfect. You get to meet somebody new, right? And if you're not good at it, bring a friend who is good at it. I've told many students and alumni, "Come stand by me. I'll walk you through it. I'll introduce you to people. I'll make sure you circulate."

And I'm sure you have buddies that are good at that sort of thing. And this is a job. It's not meant to be comfortable. If you have to go out there and meet new people, that's part of your job. That's part of moving the ball forward so that you get the job within a reasonable timeframe. And realize that a reasonable timeframe is not two weeks. These hiring cycles are much longer now than they used to be. Five, six interviews is not uncommon.

[19:41]Brian Jackson: Even the onboarding... I mean, you could have the offer and then have to wait a month to even begin.

[19:45]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely, absolutely.

[19:46]Brian Jackson: I mean, it can take three to six months, I think is a reasonable window. And if it's outside of that, I mean, it just depends on what you're looking for, too, right?

[19:56]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. The market, the availability, the parameters you put on your search will increase the amount of time that it takes to get a job.

[20:06]Brian Jackson: So, when you're looking at someone, they come into your office, maybe it's been a few weeks since they've gotten the news, how can you pretty quickly tell that someone's doing their search from a place of panic rather than purpose?

[20:19]Marie Bergeron: Here's the killer, "I'll take anything." This is not helpful. This is not helpful. If you're networking and telling somebody, "I'll take any job," they have no idea how to help you. You have to say, "I think I want to go into supply chain or perhaps procurement," you know? And that way the people's minds can go to: Who do they know in those areas, right? And if you talk to them and you say, "Well, you know, I could do this, and I could do that," but give them a line that they can follow to help you.

So, if people tell me, "I'll take anything," or they tell me, "I've sent out 250 applications online," right? And I say, "Did you tailor?" And they go, "A little bit." I know that they're in trouble. If they try to use a service that sends resumes out, I know they're in trouble because they don't want to get involved in their own job search. They want it to be automatic, and there's nothing automatic about a job search. I have people tell me, "Can you give me the name of a placement agency who'll find a job for me?" And I say, "That doesn't exist." Placement agencies don't go find you a job. Placement companies work for a company to fill an opening. If you happen to look good for that opening, they'll talk to you. If not, they won't, and they probably won't remember you two weeks from now. So, if they do the kind of placement that you're interested in, you need to contact them on a regular basis.

There are services out there that say they'll, for the low, low fee of $5,000 or $10,000, they will guarantee to find you a job, and you need to run if they tell you that, because no one is going to find you a job. They will use all these methods that we've just talked about to try to assist you to do that, but nobody can do that. So, you are in charge of your job search, which is why I say plan, research and execute, because it is so much more fun. I know this is going to sound odd, but looking for a job can be fun. You reconnect with people you haven't talked to in a long time. You learn about opportunities you never thought that you might fit into. You feel, kind of, smart about the market.

And if you like people, you're having coffee with people, you're having lunch with people, instead of sitting in your office in front of a computer screen, and it literally can be fun. And I realize there's a financial thing, kind of, sitting on your shoulder. But it's something that you can actually enjoy if you're doing it right, because you'll get results. You'll have people that send you to someone that might actually interview you and whatnot.

[23:17]Brian Jackson: And you get to discover these new, unique opportunities that you wouldn't have considered otherwise.

[23:22]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely.

[23:24]Brian Jackson: But looking at jobs, re-entering the market, let's say you've done the application, now you've gotten the interview. How do you explain a layoff?

[23:33]Marie Bergeron: That is so easy. A layoff is an organizational thing. If you're not the only person that was fired that day, right? It is a reduction in force, it is a layoff. And if they say, you know, "Why are you not working at Chevron anymore?" "Well, there was a reorganization. A lot of different groups were impacted. They did the best they could. They treated us well. And, you know, I'm seeing it as an opportunity to try something different, like what we're talking about today, and that's why I'm excited." Again, in today's world where layoffs happen every day, that's not a bad thing. If you're fired for cause, that becomes a little bit of a problem, but we can work it.

[24:16]Brian Jackson: But we can work it. That's the thing. I think it's like the art of not... I don't want to say, “storytelling” because that almost acts like you're not telling the truth, but I think there are ways of using the right words to describe that.

[24:28]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. Articulation. Articulate. And on that point, Brian, people will say to me, "I don't have that experience." And I'll go, "Wait a minute. Didn't you do this and this and this?" Yes. Well, you called it this in this industry, in this role. They're calling it something else. Why don't you figure a way to talk about it in their terminology so that it makes sense? And that is a skill, I will say that. But you can work with people to have them help you, or work with AI, "I did this and this and this in the healthcare industry. How would I re-articulate it for this thing over in the oil and gas industry?"

And I promise you, AI will help you with the terminology. It's a matter of language. But you have to make the translation in your own head so that you believe it. So, if you're skeptical of yourself, start practicing it on yourself. Talk into Zoom.

[25:32]Brian Jackson: That's a great point!

[25:33]Marie Bergeron: Talking to your cell phone. Make yourself hear yourself, sell yourself in the language of the new role, and eventually it'll feel right.

[25:44]Brian Jackson: Yeah, and I mean, words truly matter, and picking the right one or the wrong one is critical.

[25:49]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely.

[25:50]Brian Jackson: You can be underselling yourself without knowing that you've done that just because you don't know how that word is used in the new industry.

[25:57]Marie Bergeron: Correct.

[25:58]Brian Jackson: So, I feel like a lot of folks asking for help is tough, right? And it feels almost like it's a sign of weakness. But you have a ton of resources in the office. Why is this so important to have advisors, mentors, to be asking people's opinions? Why is it the smartest thing you can do?

[26:18]Marie Bergeron: Because everybody comes from a different frame of reference. You're kind of stuck in a rut. I'm stuck in a rut, kind of, right? And if you give the same facts to different people, they will come up with totally different ideas and nuances that you didn't anticipate, or you didn't think about. So, it helps you refine, it helps you broaden as well how you look at certain things. And each of these people have a network, and each of these people have lived experiences. And what you're telling them will cause them to speak to you about something or refer you to somebody that never would've occurred if you were just running it around in your own head and your own network.

I worked in outplacement for many years, and I went to South Louisiana, to New Iberia, where these people who'd been laid off… these hands out in the oil and gas field. And I was doing a workshop for these people that were roustabouts and drilling managers and all this. And people were not believing what I said because they were very downcast because they didn't think they could get a job. Oil industry was low. And there was a young man in there. He said, "Now, wait a minute." He said, "I'm going to tell you something." He said, "This isn't the first time I got laid off. The last time I got laid off, I was devastated. And I went home, and I told my wife, and she said, 'Oh, honey, don't worry about that. We're going to go out tonight. We're going to have a nice dinner and celebrate.'" And he goes, "Well, what the heck?"

So, they got all dressed up. They called their babysitter, young lady. She comes over, and she said, "What are you all dressed up and going out in the middle of the week?" And they explained, "Well, I lost my job. I'm trying to cheer myself up." And so, they leave their kids, go out to dinner. When they come back, this little 15-year-old babysitter sits there with a list of two or three names and said, "My dad said you ought to call this guy and this guy because they might have a line on a job for you." And he said, "I got a job from one of those names within a week." He said, "In my right mind, I would not have called my 15-year-old babysitter and say, 'Hey, you got any ideas for me?'" But it worked out, right? So, talking to people is absolutely critical.

It also will keep you emotionally nourished. It is awful to sit at home unemployed while your spouse goes off to work, and you know, you go, "I've just applied to 20 jobs today. I can't do any more," right? It allows you to have this blend of activities that you have at work, right? If you go to the office, you do a lot of different things. So, it keeps you motivated, keeps you going, and it's going to move you towards your job. If I had a room full of about 50 people and I said, "How many of you in your last job change used networking in some form?" I can guarantee you 90% of the hands will go up. It's just not done through job application anymore.

[29:29]Brian Jackson: That's totally true. So, you've gone through all the steps here. You've actually, let's say this example we were working through earlier, I've gotten a new job. I probably don't feel super confident to negotiate on a salary. But how do you still do that? How do you broach that and push for more?

[29:47]Marie Bergeron: First of all, you've got to consider what you put on the application. Many online applications now ask you for a targeted salary or a salary range or whatever. So, try to remember and keep records. Like, you know, you have to keep good records. You have to have good naming protocols for your resumes and keeping track of your networking contacts, right? So, depending on what you put on that application, you know, if you gave a range and they were somewhere near the top of that range, you have a little less wiggle room than if they came in at the bottom of that range, right?

So, here's my approach to negotiating. I did a negotiation this week, and he wanted more vacation, more salary, and equity. I said, "Choose two. Don't be asking for three," right? But my approach is to look at the offer, look at the benefits, make a spreadsheet. Here's what I was making, here's what the offer is, both quantitatively and qualitatively, so you really do understand how much better or worse this offer is than what you had before, right? So that you have knowledge. You're not just flying off the handle here, right? Then check out some resources. Ask Claude or somebody, you know, what a salary range is for this kind of job with this size of company so that you, kind of, know where you are on it.

And let's say you do want to negotiate the salary. I suggest that you do all that stuff, and then you call whoever... Whose name is on the offer letter. You email them or call them and say, "Can I make a meeting so that I can discuss and clarify the offer? I'm very excited. I'm so excited about the offer, but I'd like to meet and iron out some details." Make an appointment. Don't just call someone and start negotiating, right?

And then you go through items. I call it clarifications and negotiations, right? So, you say, "It says here that my 401(k) starts three months." "Yes, that's true," right? And you go through the easy stuff. Then you get to the hard stuff, the salary and the bonus or whatever, and you say, "Is there any flexibility around compensation?" Right? You haven't said, "I want this, got to have that." I actually had somebody tell me that they told their boss that they've got a new mortgage and they can't afford it. It's not his problem, right? You know. "Is there any flexibility around the compensation?" And they have to say something. They have to say, "When we set a salary, that's it."

But mostly they'll say, "What are you thinking?" And you say, "Well, I've done a little research. When I put that I wanted 175, I didn't realize that I also did this, this, and this. So, I think for this job in the marketplace, a fair salary is more like 190." You can let it go at that. And they go, "Well, we'll go back. We'll talk about it," whatever. Or a range, you know, 185 to 200, right? And then you just go through each of those and see where there might be flexibility. There's not usually flexibility on commission structure. There's not usually flexibility on 401(k). Sometimes there's flexibility on PTO, sometimes there's not.

But usually there's 5% to 10% play in salary. It depends how you approach it. If you say, "I want, I need, I got to have," it's a lot different from saying, "Is there any flexibility?" And they might just say, "No, that's it. We stretched ourselves." At least you know at that point in time, right? But it's good for you to look at it very, very carefully. And things like 401(k) match, things like stock options and whatnot can make a big difference in the total package.

[33:41]Brian Jackson: Sure, it can.

[33:41]Marie Bergeron: And sometimes the salary that's equal or a little bit lower may be okay, you know.

[33:46]Brian Jackson: So, for our listeners, I mean, we could have folks who are happily employed or actively job searching. What's one thing that every professional could do to make their next career transition easier?

[33:57]Marie Bergeron: Network. Don't forget that there are other people out there just because you're happily employed. I see it all the time. People get fat and happy wherever they're working, and then something happens, you know? Companies reorganize all the time, and there you are, fat and happy. Your boss loves you. He's been your advocate all the way through, and then he leaves, and they put somebody else in, and you do not get along with that person, right?

And suddenly you've got to do something. If you are networking internally and externally all the time, when some of these upsets happen, it's not as scary because you know people who work at these companies and people in this other department and this other group that you can maybe move over to when this new boss is not what you want. So, think of people all the time, all the time. You know, I'm aging out over here, and a lot of the people I know here at Rice Business are retiring and moving on, so I've got to meet all these new younger people coming in so that I'm still embedded in the organization, and then they don't say, "Who's that short lady over there?" Right? You know, you need to, kind of, keep your network active so that you have resources internally and externally that you can access.

[35:23]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining me. This has been really informative and just a ton of fun, so thanks, Marie.

[35:32]Marie Bergeron: I found it great fun, too, and thank you for asking me.

[35:38]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.

[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot Series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

Today I'm joined by Henry Richardson, Professional MBA Class of 2009, founder and CEO of DEFINE, Define Living, and Feronia. From his days as a national champion diver to building a portfolio of wellness businesses, Henry has dedicated his career to helping people live healthier, more intentional lives.

In this conversation, we'll discuss his entrepreneurial journey, the philosophy that environment shapes behavior, what he's learned about leadership and positive psychology, and how a defining moment at Rice Business shaped the philosophy that's guided his career ever since.

Hey, good morning, Henry. Thank you so much for joining me on Owl Have You Know.

[00:52]Henry Richardson: Hey, Brian. It's great to be here.

[00:54]Brian Jackson: Where are you calling from?

[00:55]Henry Richardson: Well, right now I'm located in Mexico, just a small little town called Tepoztlán. It's about an hour and a half south of Mexico City.

[01:04]Brian Jackson: Tepoztlán?

[01:05]Henry Richardson: That's right. Good job.

[01:06]Brian Jackson: Okay. I'm trying.

[01:07]Henry Richardson: Actually, the way I was introduced to Tepotzotlán in general, I was leading a retreat to Mexico City, and it was with a group that organizes a variety of different types of events. And they had called me because their instructor had actually dropped out. I used to own and run a business called DEFINE Body & Mind, which was fitness, health, and wellness, and so health and wellness retreats were part of our annual activities.

So, they asked me if I could jump in to fill in for this instructor, and I saw Mexico City. This was in 2017. I'm from Houston, Texas, born and raised, but had never, ever been to Mexico City and had always wanted to go. And so, I signed up, like, instantly. I was like, "Yes, count me in." And I didn't even pay attention, but there was this extra little stop right afterwards at this place called Tepotzotlán. And I was looking it up, and I was like, "Oh, that looks interesting," but, you know, I didn't give it too much attention. But when I actually got there, I was blown away. It was almost like I had felt like I'd discovered, like, this uncharted territory, which is very selfish to think of because it's, you know, been in existence for thousands of years and actually has a lot of history to it. But over about five years of leading retreats here, I actually have a place down here now. I love it so much.

[02:17]Brian Jackson: Well, it's incredible, and there's no shortage of interest in your story. I was looking, kind of, at your background starting at the beginning. You know, being a national champion diver to then going to teaching sixth graders in the South Bronx, not a path that I think a lot of people expect, probably even surprised yourself. So, how did you first get into diving, and then how did that lead you ultimately to Teach For America?

[02:40]Henry Richardson: Yeah, it's fun to think about those various, I guess, decision points that created that path. You know, because I, like most kids, was very active, loved all sorts of different sports and activities. But I somehow just gravitated towards all water sports. I was a swimmer growing up, and, you know, I remember I did well with it. I was actually a gymnast and a swimmer and all these different activities, but swimming really stuck.

One day I remember just, kind of, swimming, and I actually saw at the other end of the pool these divers diving. And it just looked like it was a lot of fun, perhaps more fun than just looking at the lane line going back and forth and back and forth. And since I had some gymnastics background, I actually spoke to the diving coach, and he said, "Yeah, get on the board. Show me what you got." And I could do a couple little things, you know. But he was like, "Yeah, come by. I'd love to have you on the team."

So, fast-forward, I did that competitively from the time I was about 11 or 12 until I was 22, right out of college. It was an amazing experience for me. You know, individual sports create something that is very powerful because it's intrinsic motivation, right? And you have to learn how to manage and deal with stress. You have to manage and deal with competition. But I actually had a lower back injury in my senior year of college. And although it was, in my opinion, somewhat a huge detriment and travesty at the time, it turned out to be one of the biggest blessings because it forced me in my senior year of college to be like, "Okay, I'm not going to be a diver for the rest of my life." And I knew that, but it forced me to take a full different vantage.

I have to admit, I wasn't super confident with what I was going to do next because I had been studying finance. But Teach For America, there was something about education that, kind of, called me and grabbed my attention, and I followed that and decided to apply, and I was luckily accepted, so moved to New York and taught sixth graders in the South Bronx.

[04:32]Brian Jackson: I mean, the juxtaposition between diving, the solo sport where success is measured, I think, in fractions and seconds, and then all of a sudden to something that's performance-based on the performance of other people. I feel like between the two, it must have just taught you so much in this period of life.

[04:50]Henry Richardson: You know, it's so interesting because that, I would say, was the time in my life where I grew up the most, was when I became a schoolteacher. I was a 22-year-old standing in front of a group of 35 11-to-14-year-old kids. It was a big age group. And I remember thinking to myself, "I'm the adult in this room." And it forced me to really take this jump and leap forward into becoming an adult and actually reminding myself, being thankful to my parents, for teaching me how to manage and operate not only a classroom, but thinking through about how I could actually be a potential role model for some of my students.

[05:32]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, I mean, you had, kind of, hinted to your lower back injury, and I think that's what brought you into yoga?

[05:39]Henry Richardson: That's right.

[05:40]Brian Jackson: I'm just curious, like, was there an aha moment, the first one where you went, "Okay, yes, this is a part of my story. You know, there's something here"?

[05:49]Henry Richardson: Yeah, this is a fun story because I remember this is back in the late '90s, early 2000s, that I took a yoga class because I was having some back pain, and the only thing I knew about yoga at the time was Madonna. If you remember, she got really into yoga during the late '90s, and she was talking about it, and she had these amazing arms. So, I was like, "All right, can't be that bad, right?" But I went to my first yoga class, and I absolutely hated it. I'm not kidding.

In the class, I was sweating, I thought, more than anyone. I was shaking more than anyone, and I was an athlete. I was literally a college Division I athlete, and the only thing I could do better than anyone else in the room was a handstand. This, kind of, is an echoing theme in my life. I was very competitive, and I just remember being like, "This is not for me. This is not for me." However, I remember I woke up the next morning. I had slept so well, and I woke up feeling really, really good.

And so, guess what? I went back the next day, and honestly, it was probably my third class, but something clicked in the third class, and it felt very freeing to get away from that uber-competitiveness and to think through that, "Actually, this is something that could be for me, that's really good for me, and I, kind of, want to feel that." So, I was doing it daily and moved to New York City, as I said. I was teaching, and it became something I did after school. It became something I did on the weekends, and then I really dove into it on the summer breaks that I had as a schoolteacher, and I, kind of, haven't stopped since.

[07:22]Brian Jackson: And then you got connected to Exhale Spa Studios.

[07:26]Henry Richardson: That's right.

[07:27]Brian Jackson: Tell me a bit about that role, and I know you went to basically grow it across five different cities.

[07:32]Henry Richardson: That's right. So, it was really funny and, kind of, serendipitous as well because my roommate happened to work at this place called Exhale, and they were a spa. They were located in New York City. They had one location on the Upper East Side, and they were opening up a new location under Central Park South. And then they happened to also be going through this, kind of, rather large expansion at the time. They were opening up in the Hamptons, in Boston, and they had talked about a Chicago location and a Los Angeles and even a San Francisco.

And so, I happened to be there, and when I first started taking classes consistently, the owner was like, "Why don't you become an instructor? We're looking for more guy instructors, and you have a clue of what you're doing, so go through the teacher training and see." And it was perfect timing because I had my summer break. I really dove into it. And I'd been teaching for the two years with Teach For America, and it was one of the hardest decisions I'd ever made because I was just finding my groove as a schoolteacher.

But those skills carried with me into this next step. And when they asked me if I'd be interested in helping them open in Boston and Chicago, I said, "Yeah, this is the adventure I've been looking for." So, the people at Exhale were so wonderful. It was such a fun time for me during my, like, early, mid-20s. Then they ended up signing on to Los Angeles. I moved to LA, and then I moved to San Francisco to help them, but the deal, the contract that they had was actually with Bloomingdale's, and it fell through. And I was living there, and I was like, "This is such a great city. I, kind of, don't want to leave yet." But I worked with this other group called The Dailey Method, and those were also some of just the kindest, nicest people.

But I was feeling this urge to grow up and make my, kind of, path, not to just simply teach fitness but to do something more, but I wasn't 100% sure what that was. But that's where Rice fit into the entire equation.

[09:23]Brian Jackson: Well, and that's exactly where I'm trying to lead us. So, I guess this is that moment where you decided an MBA or Rice was the right fit.

[09:31]Henry Richardson: That's right. I studied finance undergrad, and I had always thought about business school. And the jaunt of becoming a fitness instructor was really never a part of the plan, but I couldn't deny the fact that there was something with it, the community, the connection. But I knew it wasn't necessarily my long-term path of teaching fitness.

So, I decided to start looking at business schools, started studying for the GMAT and doing all the things you've got to do, and I did pretty decently, and I was like, "Okay, let's see." And Rice just was the perfect fit for me. Being from Houston, it was always the prestige of Rice University that attracted me. It was the program, it was the entrepreneur path at Rice. It was looking deeper into some of the different professors, and Al Napier being one of them, and just there were a lot of fun coinciding events that I said, "This is great." And I also thought maybe I could even live at home and save some money. And so, I applied to Rice, I got accepted, and I lived at home for approximately three weeks and decided, "No, that's not going to work." But it was a great time of life. It really was.

[10:39]Brian Jackson: So, I mean, during your time at Rice, you know, one of your professors, and I believe I was asked the same thing, was "define your role in the world," right? You know, what did that mean to you, and what did you think in that moment in trying to answer that question at this age? I mean, it feels like it's still young, right?

[10:58]Henry Richardson: So, my first year of, you know, the two years of business school, I'd say the first year wasn't the smoothest for me because it seemed like a lot of my classmates, you know, they knew which path they were taking from an oil and gas perspective or engineers or... There was a lot of clarity, and I was perhaps intimidated by that, right? Because I still was trying to figure out what was this next step. I knew real estate was something I enjoyed, and it's something that my family is involved in, and I had exposure to it, therefore seemed like a likely next step. But if you recall, so, I was in business school 2007 through 2009, and that was literally the time of the Great Recession.

And so, my first semester of my second year was when everything just essentially was bleak. I remember one of my professors, he said, "Look, last year 75% of students at this point had job offers, and this year only 25%. So, it's a complete flip, right? And so, things aren't as hopeful as they perhaps were over a year ago." And he said the phrase you just mentioned. He said, "Listen, don't take a job just because it's available. Take something that's going to define your role in this world." And I just, like, stopped in my foot track, like, this may not be exactly what I do, but if I do, if I open up a studio, a fitness studio, I'm calling it DEFINE. That's exactly the thing I needed.

And I actually have to admit, I cut my next class, which I am not one prone to do. I feel like I'm a good student, right? But I cut my next class, and I filed my DBA for DEFINE in Harris County. That, kind of, just gave me this momentum, and I decided to work with Al Napier. I did my sweat equity case study for this particular business, which was DEFINE. And I ended up doing an independent study in my second semester of my second year, so my last semester, with him as well. And it really, kind of, solidified my goals and my direction.

[13:03]Brian Jackson: And that gave you... I mean, having him help you gave you the foundation to go, right? And like, without that, it feels so daunting to approach, "How do I start something?"

[13:13]Henry Richardson: Yeah, I carry this theme, it seems like, in most of the areas of my life. I'm creative, and I'm adventurous for sure. I mean, I used to dive from a 10-meter platform. But I'm not just, like, blindly foolish in anything I do. I'm pretty calculated in terms of the approach that I take to most things. Like in diving, you start on the one meter, and then you go to the three, and then you go to the five, and then you go to the seven, and then you go to the 10.

And so, there's these steps that take you along this path, and the exact same thing happened with me at business school. And it was so powerful because Rice was the quote-unquote "platform" for me to dive and jump into my business, and it gave me the path and the training to feel confident. And I tell people that my first month of business, I literally hit the different benchmarks that we had set in that independent study for goals based on just the fact that I was able to sit with it for months and really think through the process. And I sadly did not hit the second month and the third month and all those things, but the first month, just because I was so focused on that first month to make sure we were hitting certain levels, we literally were, like, exact on our costs and exact on our revenue goals. So, it was fun.

[14:29]Brian Jackson: So, then building DEFINE, I feel like the thought of "environment shapes behavior" really comes into play, and it's a common thread in your story and in everything that I think that you've ultimately built. When did you first realize the concept and then also decide that, "Oh, this has such a profound impact on who we become"?

[14:49]Henry Richardson: That's insightful. That is something that has always been a part of the DEFINE message. So, the full story of DEFINE was in 2009 we opened our first location, and then in 2010 we actually opened up a second location in Houston. And around that same time, 2012, we were opening up our third, plus also we had some interest in people franchising or expanding. We first opened in The Woodlands and Sugar Land, but then we opened up in Ohio.

So, we really solidified our franchising program at that point, and so I tried to invest a lot into our teacher training and our programming and everything. But what stood out was, you know, the franchises that created these environments that were a part of the best hour of your day, they literally welcomed you, not only just like cheerleading. That's not what, like, I'm advocating for, but there was this authentic sense of well-being being around this person. Like, they knew something. They wanted to share, they wanted to love on you, they wanted to take care of you, they wanted to push you, they wanted to challenge you. That environment is what made our franchises successful, and not all of them could create that.

And so, that was when I was like, "Okay, how can we train our franchises to create these powerful environments?" Well, fast-forward, 2020 comes around, right? And so, the pandemic changes the entire environment and makes everything very difficult. But I just so happened to sell all of my Houston area locations to franchisees. Things evolved, and things shifted and changed, and that's when I started to get involved in real estate with health and well-being, and that's the phase and chapter I've been in for the past three years now.

[16:34]Brian Jackson: Yeah, so that phase, what does it look like to talk about environment beyond just an apartment lease? Like, what's the expansion there?

[16:44]Henry Richardson: That's a great question because when you think about it, if I were to tell you, "Oh, we're building well-being multifamily apartment communities," it's like, okay, that sounds interesting. There are amenities that you're adding to make well-being a service for the residents. That's probably what most people take away, and that's true. But it's so much more than well-being amenities because we do offer infrared saunas, we have cold plunges, we have our boutique fitness classes, we offer cooking and meditation. So, those could be replicated by other groups. But what is much more difficult to be replicated is a community and an atmosphere that creates its core central message around well-being.

And so, from our leasing, from our touring, from our introduction to residents to all the different programming that we offer, we incorporate this entire directional position called a Community Wellbeing Director, and they're very hands-on with each of the residents, and it literally creates this beautiful sense of connection. And then their job is training to help that individual to build community. And so, we go through an actual 30-minute consultation with each and every one of our residents when they're moving in. We ask about goals. We ask about, you know, health and wellness and fitness. We ask about where are the areas they want to grow? What are some of the things that are preventing them from growing?

And so, we have one of our Community Wellbeing Directors at Define Living, which is in Houston. She's worked for me for over 13 years, and so she really gets the message and the mission, and it's been really fun.

[18:26]Brian Jackson: It's got to be fulfilling. Like, you're doing more than just the place to live. You're actually building that community and life, and you're impacting people in a more profound way. Does that drive you, too, to have that type of impact?

[18:43]Henry Richardson: Yeah. The thing that drove me to even start DEFINE is community. And, you know, I've asked myself this question a lot, like, "Why are you so wanting to drive community?" And it's because, you know, I have found in some of the most challenging moments of my life that those have been the most profound and uplifting things in my life, is the people around me. And I am very close with my family, so that is a huge part of my community.

But I would say that my diving community, when I was in diving, they got me through some of those challenging moments. Like my back injury, personal things that were going on, making those transitions are big for 20-something-year-olds. But it was my diving friends and the closeness that we had. And I remember the same exact thing with my Exhale groups. We went through our instructor trainings together. We really bonded over something that was really powerful.

And so, you just can't replicate that inauthentically, right? You have to have those things in life. And it seems like we're moving away from those senses of connection and community. And I'm not advocating for only Define Living, but I think we're doing a good job of building community. I think there's a lot of ways to build community, but it just so happens that it makes it really easy when you have a place that you actually live and you can go and take a class at no extra charge, and you also happen to see people that you connect with and have fun with, and then you happen to see them in an elevator and you can have a conversation with versus that awkwardness that is often the case in most apartment communities. So, yeah, community is what creates that drive.

[20:24]Brian Jackson: No, it does. I think, like, you're right. This world is changing. I think of remote work. Like, you don't have that sense of community at work that you used to have because you're not huddled around a table together. You're in your house, like I am right now. I lived in an apartment in Boston, same thing. The only community we could really find were the other folks who owned dogs.

[20:45]Henry Richardson: Yes. Right.

[20:45]Brian Jackson: And then we all get to know each other because we're in the same space, and I know they like dogs, and they know I like dogs.

[20:52]Henry Richardson: It's so true. Yeah, and it is, it's those shared interests that create some of the stronger communities no matter what setting it's in. And I know that there's a lot of people that are doing a great job of incorporating technology and incorporating different programming to build that sense of community.

And so, now it's centered around something that hopefully, you know, when you think about health and well-being, and I'm very intentional not to use the term "wellness" as much as "well-being," and the reason is because I feel like wellness has turned into something that you have to chase. Like, you have to buy wellness. Like, you have to take a supplement to achieve wellness, or you have to inject wellness into you. You know? There's all these ways that “wellness” is being utilized.

And so, to me, it's really about well-being isn't something you chase, it's something that you develop. You grow it. It's already intrinsic. You just have to put a little effort towards it to make sure that it's there. And the same thing is true with creating community. We all have that ability to create connection. We just have to give ourselves the opportunities to be able to actually do it instead of sometimes the easier route, which is just to go home, watch Netflix, or get on social media, you know? And it's a masquerade because that sense of connection is slightly tapped into on social media, but it doesn't create that soul-fulfilling element of it.

[22:09]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, as a leader, you've had to have evolved because what you're trying to do now is a totally different definition of building than I feel like when you were in diving or as a teacher in Teach For America. What does that look like today as being a leader?

[22:26]Henry Richardson: Yeah. I hinted at it earlier that I'm a lifelong student, and I feel like the most important thing for me is to be able to, first, be able to speak the vernacular in whatever industry I'm working in, right? And so, since I've really moved over towards real estate and the development side, as well as also property management, I've done some certifications, right? I've made sure that I'm there and able to communicate and speak and think in terms of that entire industry.

But overall, aside from just being a student, I think being a leader, there's two things that come to mind for me. The first is the most important, which is, like, not to try to pretend like I know something that I don't, right? For me, when I first stepped into some of these things, I had to really rely on the people that were already great property managers, the people that were already really involved in understanding the budgets and the financial aspects of how our properties run. And I didn't want to step in and be like, "This is going to do so well if we do this," you know?

I wanted to sit with them and learn and be a part of understanding the conversations and the concerns, because the concept of a strength and a weakness is also very relevant for me. Because a strength represents our ability to rely almost instinctually on what we feel and know is going to happen. Whereas a weakness, there's a lot of blind spots within that. And so, I wanted to be exposed to as many of the potential weaknesses because we're not talking about, like, a 1,500, 2,000 square foot studio anymore, right? We're talking about, like, a 260-unit apartment community, and we're about to start developing our 388-unit apartment community.

And so, I have to make sure that there's no hubris involved in this process, and it really is a focus of intentional, directed work. But the second thing about being a leader, it also echoes this concept of how can you inspire and help people to see things somewhat differently based on just a little shifting of our head, saying we could be almost an industry disruptor in this entire way without having to shift at all except for just looking at it slightly differently. And we already have the homes. We already have the beautiful floor plans. We already have the beautiful facilities. But let's bring a new culture, a new environment, so that we can actually really not just say that we're a well-being community marketing-wise, but actually make our residents improve their well-being.

[24:53]Brian Jackson: I feel like making this pitch to someone has got to be challenging, right? Because a lot of it... I mean, these are big words that have a lot of meaning to it, and they don't know if it's a gimmick or, you know, like, how do you broach that and actually get to the point of like, "Here's the proof of concept. This is worthwhile"?

[25:14]Henry Richardson: 100%. And that from day one was always my biggest concern. I don't want this to be gimmicky. I want this to be focused on how can we literally take a resident, measure their well-being from when they first move in, and then see how it develops and grows. And so, the other part of this equation is I actually went back to school right before the pandemic to study and focus on well-being. So, University of Pennsylvania has this positive psychology master's program, and I got really involved and invested into it.

In fact, I teach at that program as an assistant instructor right now, and I have been for the past five years, because it's not something, again, that's a gimmick to me. It's how can we truly create an environment through research, measure our impact, and see it create a positive change in whatever environment we're in. And the funny thing about positive psychology is it was super embraced by education, so private schools, public schools, as well as also in the military. Positive psychology focuses and studies on resiliency, on grit, because that's the most important aspect of having that sense of positive. And when I say "positive," it's not positive thinking. It's not being happy all the time. It's literally thinking about what in this situation can help me to thrive to get to where I want to go. So, there's a lot of goal setting. There's a lot of motivation, and then focused on that.

And so, I feel like for me, when I think about how to ensure this is no gimmick, I rely a lot on those research components, but more importantly, we incorporate an assessment tool with our residents so that we can look and see how we're performing. We have actively put in an app that our residents can literally just pull up and say, "You know what? I want to do meditation," or "I want to do one of the cooking classes," or "I want to take an online fitness class." And having all those many, many, many years, over a decade, of having content that we've recorded, we have a lot of different opportunities for our residents to tap into. So, it is much more than just a gimmick. It's something really fun for us to be able to apply and see it be effective.

[27:26]Brian Jackson: So, you're expanding Define Living. You've also developed the new facility called Feronia, which is where you are now. Tell me about Feronia. If I were to show up on a Friday and I'm exhausted from my, you know, day job here, what would you hope I feel when I leave on Sunday?

[27:45]Henry Richardson: Absolutely. I don't have to do anything because this space does it on its own. Honestly, there's something magical about Tepotzotlán. Like I said, I visited, and it captured my attention, and it's literally just because, A, the nature. The mountains and the rocks here, it's like Avatar in the sense that there are these, like, floating cliffs and the clouds and everything. It's quite spectacular. The other thing that's so great is in the summertime, the highs are in the 70s, and it gets into the low 60s, and it kind of is consistent to that year-round. But it's extra special in the summer just because, as we all know, in Houston, Rice area, it's pretty hot.

But you're going to come to Tepotzotlán, this is like authentic small-town Mexico that feels very untouched. In fact, there's no Starbucks. There's no chain hotels or chain restaurants of any sort here. It's all locally owned by ordinance. And behind each and every gate that opens up, you can't help but look and just see these incredibly lush, beautiful gardens and homes. And so, one day we were looking, and it was a house that was for sale. And then the realtor, she told us that there was a house right next door that happened to also just be for sale. And sure enough, we walked in, and we started to look around. We're like, "Yep, this is it. This is the one." Because you could see that it needed a little extra love, but it was also a space.

And so, I had just recently sold my studio businesses in Houston, and I knew I wanted to incorporate still something to do with health and well-being, but because this was prior to Define Living. And I thought, "You know what? This could be a really powerful retreat space." And it'd be an intimate, powerful retreat space, and that's been the vision. And we've slowly evolved it into becoming that. And I'm excited because if you were to come on a Friday, by the time you leave on Sunday, you will have had some of the most delicious meals of your life. You will have had some of the most incredible views and experiences from a hike that we took to visit a pyramid that's here locally. On an ideal day, you might see a UFO or something.

No, I'm just, kind of, kidding. But you would get all sorts of just open-hearted relaxation built into this entire process because it really truly is a special, magical, in fact, they call it an energetic place. The history of it has a lot from the Aztec culture. One of the main gods, Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, is said to have been born here, and so it has a rich history. Just learning more about the indigenous culture really has been fun and powerful. And historically, it is a place for health and healing, and so they do all sorts of different yoga retreats here. They do all sorts of different massage therapies and other therapies that are geared towards well-being, and so of course it captures my interest.

[30:46]Brian Jackson: And then translating your vision of DEFINE, you know, across the border, cross-culturally, what was that experience like?

[30:54]Henry Richardson: Yeah, so creating retreats, it's fun. It's just a lot of fun because without fail, every retreat has one or two people, sometimes more, that they're just high-strung, right? Whether it's traveling to a foreign country, whether it's low blood sugar, whether it's just general being slightly uncomfortable, therefore the stress comes out. And it is so powerful to watch people instantaneously get out of that van and just take a big sigh and exhale.

And so, for me, DEFINE has been a process of, okay, how can we help people tap into something that's going to serve them to be their best in their daily lives, to be better parents, to be better at their jobs, to see more meaning in their lives? You know, we all feel that when we are finished with an exercise class or a good workout, like we can conquer the world. But then how can we, kind of, sustain that and create that feeling throughout our day, throughout our lives? And doing a retreat is an extension of that from a bit more of an extended amount of time.

[31:56]Brian Jackson: I think of this as like the intersection of business, positive psychology, and a bit of spirituality. You know, how do you find those three ideas end up complementing each other?

[32:07]Henry Richardson: Yeah. In fact, that's what I focused on in positive psychology. I talked about how business is actually a very spiritual process. It is discipline, it's devotion, it is connecting to something that's bigger than yourself so that you can be better than just the individual self that you are. And I think business is very much like that. I feel like if you are working in an industry that you're passionate about, that you want to contribute to, it can be something that can be utilized for the good of humanity. You know, doing well by doing good, that whole mindset. And it sounds, kind of, like conscious capitalism, right? Because there are a lot of overlaps to it.

But the notion that spirituality can be a really grounding, practical force for us, not just as an individual, but you know, even like as a team, if we were all to go take a yoga class and, kind of, really get into that synchronistic mindset, we can then go and do bigger, better stuff together as well. And the same thing could be true for an exercise class or a cooking class or a meditation class, all the above.

So, yeah, think of it as the body, the mind, the spirit of business. The body being the people that work at the business. The mind being the entire mindset and making sure that we aren't overworking to the point of burnout and stress, but also learning how to manage those times when we do have to work really hard and put in those long hours. And then the spirit of business. So, "spirit," the word itself actually means to breathe, to be in spirito, to be in breath. To be filled with life is essentially what the word "spirit" means from a Latin sense. And so, if we can fill our entire organization up with just breath and life, we can be better at our business, that's the goal.

[33:51]Brian Jackson: So, I mean, you're applying all these things into business. You're learning them on your own, applying it to your own life. Is there something that you've brought in that's had the biggest impact?

[34:01]Henry Richardson: You know, the pandemic challenged me hugely, hugely because I had to pivot rapidly. Luckily, we were in a point where we were already starting to offer online fitness classes. We were just getting freshly into this. And that phase was really focused on how can I make sure that each and every one of our studios was going to thrive and do well and try to survive this entire experience. And it was really, really tough because I took a lot of it personally when a studio was having to close, or, you know, we had a couple studios that were up for their lease renewals, et cetera, and you're not going to want to renew your lease in the middle of a pandemic, which was unfortunate but understood.

So, for me, that timeframe, that shift was the challenge for me to say, "You are prepared physically. You are now prepared mentally, emotionally because of your studying of positive psychology, the study of grit, the study of resilience that this is your test," right? This is your test to take it to the next step.

And I will say, you know, it's fun to think about how things evolve and bloom and change because I wouldn't have expected to develop Define Living, but it is because of the pandemic. And you said it earlier, working from home created a sense of disconnection. The COVID pandemic created a sense of disconnection. And I saw even with my own son, like, just like a bit of a hyper-paranoia of, like, being around other people. And we were already doing the business of like starting to build an apartment community, and that's when I said, "Let's do this. Let's incorporate a Define Living mindset that really is focused on health and well-being services."

[35:43]Brian Jackson: Well, the timing of it all, it was needed. So, if someone were listening today and they feel stuck or disconnected, which I think in this new world that we live in is so probable, what's the first change that they could make that would help to create an environment where they're more likely to thrive?

[36:01]Henry Richardson: You know, there's this researcher, her name is Barbara Fredrickson from the University of North Carolina, and she talks about the broaden-and-build theory. And it's so simple, but it is so, so powerful. And the concept is, one little thing of positive broadens, and that little broadening of your perspective, of your emotional well-being, of your thinking process, that little opening can help you to start to build a new pathway. You just have to make sure you consistently create those new paths, right?

And so, how do you do that? Well, that's where life becomes really fun. What's one thing that you can look forward to? What's a song you can push play on right now that makes you feel a little bit better, that you can do while you're doing something else? That then just creates a new regimen. So, the concept of positive psychology is really centered around awareness, which is to say, when you find yourself constricted or "below the line" is a term that I like to use. When you're below the line in fear and stress and anxiety or whatever it might be, what's that one little thing that you know you can go to, even if it feels a little superficial, that helps you to just get back to either the line or will help you to open up your viewpoint just a little bit?

And I'm not going to lie, sometimes it's like a bite of ice cream. I'm not saying it's like a whole big bowl of ice cream, but sometimes it's a little sweet, fun, hedonic, pleasurable type thing that can help us to find it. But I would say the real powerful impact with the things that really create long-lasting well-being, and I know for me, music is a huge thing that I can use. All right, put on a song to make me get into a slightly different vantage, and before you know it, you're, kind of, moving in a little bit of a different energetic path. And so, how can you think through that and then give yourself perhaps more longer-term goals to look forward to that create positive change?

[37:55]Brian Jackson: That's great advice. So, our listeners, after this episode, maybe click on the one song that gets you started.

[38:03]Henry Richardson: It's true. And it sounds so simple, but it's the simplistic things that make it so powerful, too.

[38:09]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, back to the question "define your role in the world," nearly what, 10, 15 years later, how would you define it today?

[38:19]Henry Richardson: I pause on that because I don't want to just sound like a broken record referencing community. But I'm going to incorporate a little bit of a few things that we've talked about because I have to think through this from an almost a spiritual perspective in the sense that I think all of us are given some innate strengths, and then over time we develop a variety of strengths. I know my strength is I appreciate excellence, I appreciate beautiful things, that's one of my strengths. I know I have a strength of creativity and caring, but at the core of it all is the strength of just love. And that sense of love for me is, like, the most important thing because we live in a day and a time where there's a lot of agitation and quick to bite.

But I do think that if we can find something that is at the core of who we are, want to be, and our strengths, we're just better versions of ourselves. And so, my role is to use my business as a vessel to create positive change from a loving place. And I have to make sure that we are very focused and strict about the way that we incorporate it because I don't want it to be perceived as willy-nilly. I don't know any other way to describe it right now. But I want it to be focused on something that is serious, but at the same time that the residents that are there, they feel that sense of uplift and joy. So, that is my role. My role is to continue to build communities and to ensure that we are making positive impacts in a very measurable, practical way.

[39:53]Brian Jackson: So, I have one selfish question. I'm recently engaged to my partner.

[39:57]Henry Richardson: Congratulations!

[39:59]Brian Jackson: Thank you. We've been looking at different places for a wedding. I know you were married at Feronia.

[40:04]Henry Richardson: That's right.

[40:05]Brian Jackson: I'm sitting here thinking, like, how special to get married at a place that you built together and that you're utilizing to impact people in a positive way. I would love to hear a bit about that story.

[40:18]Henry Richardson: I'd love to tell you it because it really, truly was. We'd discussed getting married off and on a little bit, but never really fully had this huge push to do so. But once Feronia came into our lives, it became very clear that this was not only a special place, but we wanted to share, but truly it was something that was going to be a part of our story with our son for the rest of our lives. And so, we couldn't think of a better way to just create a really powerful moment.

And so, our son, who is now 15, so we got married three years ago, so he was a little bit younger at the time, obviously, he was very integrated into the entire process, into the wedding. It was really fun. He stood up there, and my partner is Persian, and so he speaks Farsi, and so our son speaks Farsi and reads it and writes it, and he speaks Spanish because we had lived in Mexico for a while and he'd studied it in school. And so, he was able to be integrated into the whole process and say a few words, and it was the best version of us is all I can say.

[41:23]Brian Jackson: Wow. Well, Henry, it has been a sincere pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for joining me on Owl Have You Know.

[41:30]Henry Richardson: Thank you, Brian. Honestly, being a part of the Rice community is such a huge gift in my life, so thank you for including me.

[41:41]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.