[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

Today I'm joined by Javier Simons, a 2025 graduate of the Rice Business Professional MBA program, and founder and president of KOQ Agency, a global touring and talent agency representing independent artists. Javier started his career as a club promoter in Austin, Texas, and went on to work with artists including LeAnn Rimes, Aqua and RuPaul. Today, through KOQ, he's helping underrepresented artists reach bigger stages around the world.

In this conversation, we'll talk about how Javier built a career in the music business, what it takes to grow an independent talent agency, the relationships and risk behind the scenes of live entertainment, and how his Rice MBA has shaped the way he approaches entrepreneurship. Hi, Javier. Hey, welcome to Owl Have You Know.

[00:59]Javier Simons: Hey, Brian, how are you? Thank you for having me.

[01:02]Brian Jackson: Well, I'm good. I'm really excited to have you here. Your background's so interesting, and I wanted to know, going to the beginning, kind of, what was the first concert or live performance where you walked away, and you were thinking, "Wow, this is my calling. I want to be a part of this world?"

[01:19]Javier Simons: Wow. You know, to be frank, I don't think it was a live performance where my love for the arts was born. It was through television. I'm originally from Panama, and major concerts were not a thing when I lived there. We would have Latin American musicians come through, but as far as, like, big concerts, there was this artist named Alejandra Guzmán, and she was one of the first shows that I saw where I experienced production. I actually got to meet her after the show. The performance was full of energy, and it really piqued an interest in me to understand how you get to make so much money for doing two hours of work.

And, you know, as a child you think, like, that's all they did. They just showed up and everything was magically there. There were no expenses, no P&Ls, no planning, no logistics. They just, boom, magically happened. And I think I was at the tender age of, like, maybe nine or 10. I remember because I was just learning to skateboard, and it was around that time when I was able to afford concert tickets, and I went to see her. I think that that moment really allowed me to experience somebody singing live and in this magnitude, and the draw, like, how people connected and how different sides of the audience would sing a song, and we were all... You know how music brought everybody together in that room. It really inspired me. And then that's when I think my love for the arts, kind of, came out.

[02:43]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, you go from learning to skateboard, seeing a concert, to then a club promoter in Austin. You know, what did 20-year-old Javier think your career was going to look like? I mean, was this just an experience grab, or was it an intentional choice?

[03:00]Javier Simons: You know, Brian, I'm going to be very candid with you. None of this was in the books for me. I think if I go back to 20-year-old Javi and I tell him what he's going to be doing, he's going to be holding his tray, taking iced tea to a table, and telling me, "Hmm. That's not happening. No."

Because I generally felt like my calling was to become a sommelier and somebody that would run a, like, a hotel or hospitality company, because that's all I knew. At that point, you know, your environment becomes everything you know. So, yeah, it definitely will be eye-opening, but I think 20-year-old Javier would be very happy that life has taken me in one of the most incredible journeys that, you know, I could have ever dreamed of.

[03:42]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, you went to the Berklee College of Music. You got a degree in music business. Was this the point of connecting those dots, all the past experiencing, "Okay, yep, this is a pathway."?

[03:54]Javier Simons: No. My background is very non-conventional. So, I didn't go to college. I was a late bloomer. I describe my 20s as well-lived and my 30s as well-grown. I was waiting tables for many years, and eventually I looked at myself, and I said, "You know, I cannot hit 40 and be holding a tray. This is not what I should be doing."

And the opportunity came about to start driving drag queens for shows. So, there's a show called RuPaul's Drag Race, and I had a friend that was a promoter, and he asked me to help him drive the artists when they were flying in from the airport to the hotel and to the venue. So, I started doing that. I'm thrown into this environment where I don't know what's going on, but I'm fascinated by the idea of hanging out backstage with a major celebrity, quote unquote, and I started learning. I just hung around the backstage of the shows, and whenever I could get my hands on a piece of paper, I would read it. So, I was reading riders, I was reading contracts, I was trying to understand how things work, what the role of an agent versus a manager were.

So, I did the school of hard knocks for about five years. I was a driver, then eventually became a talent buyer and a promoter, and then the opportunity came about to join one of the agencies that represented these artists. I decided that I needed to level up because I was in rooms with people with college degrees and had professional careers, and here I was, five years before, just holding a tray and not knowing where direction my life was taking.

So, the journey itself was one of opportunities were coming to me, and I was taking advantage of them. There was never a job that was too small for me to do. There was never a job that was too big for me to not learn and execute it. And at that point, I felt like I had reached a ceiling. And I started looking into the pathways to grow myself professionally, and that's when I decided to register for school and attend a university and learn about how do you really put an artist on tour? How do you handle music publishing? How do you handle the licensing? How do you structure a management contract? You know, I needed to learn all this.

And through that journey, through my initial journey of personal connections and personal growth, is where my mind clicked and said, "You know, now you have to go to college." College was never part of the plan. I never really had a plan, to be quite frank. I didn't. But when I started seeing the opportunity and the potential, then I decided to enhance what I had to offer. Because if I'm going to walk in a room with agents and artists that are being represented by the top people in the world, and they've all gone to Berklee, Rice, Columbia, you name it, I cannot show up with a high school education.

And it was something I wanted to do also to enhance my artists' scale of being represented. I want them to feel like they had somebody in the room that was not only equal but probably better than the other ones in the room.

[06:52]Brian Jackson: Sure. So, then KOQ. What was the mission, and why was it important to build an agency that focused on really underrepresented artists?

[07:04]Javier Simons: So, KOQ was born out of my passion to not only help underrepresented artists, but through the growth of this specific queer and ally market. So, the Prides around the country were showing exponential numbers, so there was definitely a market there to grow. When RuPaul's Drag Race debuted, drag queens were just an underground artist segment that belonged only in gay bars. And when Drag Race made it universal, there was an industry being built, and I'm proud to say that I was part of the framework and the architecture of that industry as it came up.

Now, back then you only had probably Divine, RuPaul, Sherry Vine, and a couple other drag queens, maybe Jackie Beat, that were making a name for themselves in the mainstream world. But other than that, you didn't have many that were getting booked for concerts and major shows. And now Trixie Mattel, Bob the Drag Queen, or Bianca Del Rio are all household names, and I've been very fortunate to have worked with each and every one of them.

So, working with them, you know, seeing this phenomenon develop created a market need. And the first rule of entrepreneurship, if you ever took a class with Al Danto, you know, you have to find a problem and then create a solution and then figure out how to monetize it, and so I did. And there are other agents in the country that are doing what we do. They're representing drag artists, and they're working with pride organizations, nonprofits, to make sure that the artists in that demographic have the right opportunities. But for me it was different because I wanted more. I wanted to work with artists that wanted to expand outside of a lip-sync number at a bar, and they wanted to record records or DJ or act or be comedians, and that's where KOQ came about. KOQ stands for King of Queens Entertainment. That's the name of the company.

And when we were just working with drag queens, we were King of Queens. But as we started working with artists like Aqua and LeAnn Rimes and Crystal Waters and Chaka Khan, we realized that maybe we need to be a little bit more inclusive even in our name. So, we pivoted to KOQ, and it was to create those experiences for people that wanted to see themselves represented on those stages and couldn't see those artists. And for me, when I was a kid, I could only see content or concerts that were curated by people that were not necessarily part of my demographic or my community, and I wanted to create those safe spaces. And by creating that safe space, I created a business model that has proven to be successful and pretty sustainable.

[09:40]Brian Jackson: Yeah, and so you found the need. How do you convince the first artist to trust you?

[09:45]Javier Simons: So, for me, when I joined the original agency I used to be employed at, they already had a built-in roster. So, the transition from being an employee at an agency to being the founder of your own agency, it was through the track record that I had created. What work had I done? How had I benefited the artist? Did I have the artist's best interest in mind every time I negotiated a contract, every time I tried to put them in a specific venue?

There's a lot of professionals in my industry that operate with a strategic mind, so they see the artist with a five-year vision, and they have the architecture built from moving them from, like, a club scene to bigger rooms, to bigger festivals, to, you know, now you see them at the Grammys. And I wanted to build that. I understood how to do it, and I needed to do that.

So, that was where our value came in, because we were not only building a sustainable business model for the artists, but we were building it long term. So, no matter where you were, if you're in one place in one year, you can continue to grow that business model. And entertainment is a very tricky business because you have to catch lightning in a bottle. One of my favorite stories that's unfolding in front of our very eyes right now is Slayyyter. Are you familiar with Slayyyter?

[11:06]Brian Jackson: No, I'm not.

[11:07]Javier Simons: You've got to get into her. So, Slayyyter, I worked with her back in 2021, and we had been working with her through my other agency since 2018, and she was an artist that we knew was going to go far. We knew she was going to develop and grow, and what you're seeing now is her career unfold. I think this is her seventh year in the industry. I think she has... This is her third album, and she has headlined every major festival. She has some major brand deals. And to see that vision come to life through a very strong management team. Her manager, Kenny, is a really great individual, and he's a man with a vision.

So, once you see that, that's what I wanted to recreate for my artists. Not only that we're going to put you on a stage, and we're going to let you have a show, but there's going to be a full rollout that's going to become a sustainable business model for years to come. So, that's really where KOQ puts their heart behind their artists. We want to make sure that we develop them. We no longer work with Slayyyter. She has moved on to one of the majors, which makes sense. And when that happened, that's when I realized that now I want to become one of the majors, you know?

So, that is the next step for KOQ, and how we're going to transition from being a boutique agency, and keeping that boutique essence where artists can reach us at any point, artists can have a conversation with us, and we're not losing that human touch, but also grow our artists to be exponentially larger than where they are today.

[12:30]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, okay, one of the big things I saw was you booked Aqua's first U.S. tour, and for our listeners, Aqua's what big hit that we would all know is "Barbie Girl"?

[12:41]Javier Simons: "Barbie Girl," from the movie Barbie, and it was the biggest song in the '90s, actually. It had the biggest streams. Aqua is an icon. Very proud of that moment.

[12:51]Brian Jackson: Iconic. How did that come together?

[12:54]Javier Simons: Through the value of the network. I received an email once right after this festival, it was one of the first years of this festival called OUTLOUD in LA, and I had booked about four artists with them that year. And their agent in Denmark was looking for... They were rebirthing Aqua, you know? They had been, kind of, dormant, and there was already talks of a Barbie movie being made.

So, we were, you know, trying to play Nostradamus a little bit and, kind of, call out the future. So, they reached out to the agency I was with, and nobody at the agency wanted to take the project, because it was something that they weren't used to doing. People were used to working with the drag artists, and the drag structure is very... It's very simple, for lack of a better word. Most drag artists would do two numbers, would do a meet and greet, and then call it a day, and then they'll get a flat guarantee. They don't get ticket bonuses. They don't do any of those things.

So, I was the only one that was up for the challenge. And they came to us in 2021, right after the hit of the pandemic. And it took a lot of work, took a lot of communication, took a lot of relationship building, and at that time I was starting my MBA journey. So, 2023 was a very big year for me. So, I was starting the MBA, and I was just launching my first national tour with my company. And when the Barbie movie was scheduled to be released, that's when we decided to hit. We were like, "Listen, we have to figure this out." And we went into every contact we had, and Live Nation jumped on as our touring partner and promoter, and we were able to make that happen, and it was a magical experience.

To see a band that you grew up with, listening to their hits, just see them on stage, and you're back there just hanging out with them, you know? Just being part of that experience, 20-year-old me, 15-year-old me, 12-year-old me would've been crazy. It was mind-blowing. But the sad thing is I don't live in the moment. I need to let people know, you need to live in the moment. Because when I was living that, I was already trying to plan my next move. I was already trying to plan how I was going to do bigger and better, so I didn't get to enjoy it.

Now, two, three years later, I look back, I'm like, it's like watching a movie, how everything, kind of, unfolded in front of me. But it was the work that I had done with the festival that spoke to their Danish agent and management, and that's when they reached out to us, and they felt like my agency at that time was the right fit to do it. And I appreciated the trust they placed in me, because I was a junior agent back then. And I figured it out, and I made it happen.

And that's one of the things that entrepreneurs need to have is take the risk, because I didn't know my full potential until I did that. Once I did Aqua, that's when I realized that there was no challenge, big or small enough, that I couldn't achieve. It was really an eye-opening moment, especially when I was going through Launch Week and starting my first semester of the MBA program. And I remember texting my core team at 5:00 a.m. I said, "If you see me with bags under my eyes and you don't hear from me until 5:30 before class, this is why." And I sent them the poster of the tour before it had released, and they were so supportive. They were very excited.

I think, in general, I think, I was the only person working in music, so it was, kind of, fascinating to them to see somebody that was, kind of, working a field that I don't think anybody in my cohort was working. I took them on a journey with me.

[16:12]Brian Jackson: So, I always think, like, your day-to-day has to be... I feel like, kind of, dramatically different than maybe mine. But, you know, people are probably imagining concerts in the evening, backstage passes, all that fun stuff. But what's a normal Tuesday for you like?

[16:28]Javier Simons: Oh, it's very, very boring. We wake up every morning, you know? You have to check your emails. The best analogy I can give you is think of this as a sales job. If you're not out there doing the outreach or connecting with people, it is just not going to work out. So, there is a lot of emails, a lot of reading, a lot of negotiations, a lot of phone calls.

And then once you have the conversations, and you finally get the yes, out of 25 nos, you finally get the yes, now you have to get to the numbers, and then the negotiation starts, and then the contracting begins, and then the terms of the contract have to be agreed upon.

And then the rider has to be agreed. And then once everything is locked, then comes the advance, which is where you contact the venue and the venue tells you everything they can provide, what they can't provide, if the staging is ready, if the lights are ready, if the instruments are provided, what instruments you need to bring. You have to figure everything out from where you're going to park the tour buses, to getting the city permitting, to making sure that your band is not playing at decibels that are higher than what the venue allows, depending on the area.

So, there's all this compliance and all these logistic elements that have to align right prior to the show, after you have negotiated, after you have made the pitch. And then you build your financial framework from there. You have to make sure that the artist... When you see on the news, "So-and-so got paid X amount of millions to do this show," yeah, but that doesn't go to the artist's pocket, you know? You have to pay your agents and your manager. They're the first ones that are getting a cut of that. You have to pay your musicians, you have to pay for your building.

So, a lot of those costs go to expenses. So, we build all the framework, all the financial management for them, and we have to make sure the show is viable. And that's one of the biggest issues we're having with the industry right now is the costs are outpacing the actual revenue or the gross revenue. So, it's becoming an issue.

[18:15]Brian Jackson: Yeah. You said riders in a contract, and I did a case I remember in law school where it was about a band that had these crazy riders they put in just to make sure that the contract was actually read.

[18:28]Javier Simons: Yeah, I do that.

[18:29]Brian Jackson: What's the wildest rider you've seen?

[18:32]Javier Simons: You know, I am very fortunate that I have been able to work with artists that are down to earth, they're not outlandish. But believe it or not, I had one of my artists ask for hot, not pre-ordered, like, the moment they get off stage, the order for Popeyes has to be made, and they need a two 24-piece basket with... But they want the chicken from Popeyes, and then you have to get the french fries from McDonald's, and then you have to get the sodas, they have to be in a can, chilled, with insulated ice cups and renewable or environmentally friendly straws.

That was one of my wildest riders. But one thing that I do put on my rider, and now that I'm going to say it, I'm going to have to change what it is, is I always put a pack of mango-flavored Tic Tacs. So, if I see that, I know they read the rider. I don't ask for anything crazy. But if I see that, then I'm at peace. Okay, they read the rider. Because sometimes those little things can be left out, because people are like, "Oh, we're not going to do that." And then if they leave that out, then how do I know that my plugins are right, that my drum kits are correct, that my cables are where they need to be, that my mics are accurate? So, yeah, I do that. Sorry. Guilty.

[19:40]Brian Jackson: Mango Tic Tacs. Those are, oddly, I think, challenging to find, so good on you. What's the biggest crisis before a show that you've had to solve?

[19:49]Javier Simons: Oh, yeah. I had an artist, we were flying to Mexico. I was a junior agent. It was one of my first years traveling internationally. I'm just excited to be in Mexico, and our bags never made it, and we have a show that night. We had to run to the store, find clothes, find a tailor in town, cut those clothes, redesign the whole thing, costume it, make sure the artist is on stage. And not only that, but we had to find a makeup artist, a hair person. It was hell. That one is the most memorable one for me because it was my first real crisis where we said, "Well, if this was a reality show, this is a challenge, so we have to tackle it."

But I had an artist cancel the weekend of the event. They had to stop touring due to medical reasons. They were doing too much, and we had to pivot the headliner with 72 hours to the show. When I tell you, that was an all-hands-on-deck day. And we did not let the promoter know until we had the replacement already in place, because it can create an extra layer of stress that you don't need at the time, because you need to focus on finding the solution. So, I came back with a Plan B, C, and D. And to be frank, Plan C and D were not going to happen, so I really needed them to go with Plan B. And thank God they went with Plan B. And the event, sold-out event, it was there in Houston, it executed really well. 

[21:06]Brian Jackson: So, I mean, as a leader, I'm sure you've evolved, and you know, as your business has grown, and you were involved in producing a major event like Denver Pride, how have you seen your role as a leader grow and change?

[21:21]Javier Simons: I have to thank Dr. Wisneski and Dr. Miles for this, because I took a ton of leadership courses with them. And it helped me understand what people need and what people want to feel accomplished, for me to understand what I needed to feel and to have to feel accomplished. And as a leader, you have to step away from what your needs are and put your team's needs first. So, leading a massive production like Denver Pride, it's a lot of stress. You have half a million people showing up to the streets of Denver to celebrate this festivity, and if anything goes wrong, if the audio goes out on the stage, if an artist doesn't show up, it's all on your shoulders. It's not on the team's shoulders, it's on your shoulders.

So, you have to have the understanding of this is your responsibility if it goes bad, and if it goes well, you have to give the credit away. And I think that that has been the biggest lesson for me as a leader, and, I think, that has shaped my leadership style, too. To understand that it's not about what I want to achieve, because I'm achieving what I want to achieve through my team and through the projects that I'm put on. But what can my team achieve realistically? And among one of the assessments that I do whenever I'm putting together a team, and I'm hiring, or I'm recruiting, or I'm, you know, issuing contracts, is, what is this person going to bring to the team?

And I'm not talking about whether their experience or their work history is, can I teach this person how to do a job? Are they capable enough of executing a task and keeping a working environment that is fit for everyone to feel comfortable in? And it's very demanding on a leader to create those workspaces where people can feel safe, but you also have to be firm, and you have to be stern on things that may not sit well with people. We have to correct. But when you have some corrective action, how do you give that information to the person that needs to be coached without cutting off or hindering their inspiration?

You know, my biggest goal is to avoid quiet quitting. Like, if somebody's on my team and just doing the bare minimum, then I know it's time for all of us to move on, for the health of the organization. I'm very proud to say I haven't had that just yet.

[23:36]Brian Jackson: No, yeah, absolutely. So, at what point did you decide, "Okay, an MBA..." And I mean, you've referenced a couple professors and things that you've applied, obviously, but how did you know, "Okay, I'm missing some skills, my MBA is going to help me, and Rice is the right place"?

[23:52]Javier Simons: So, I'd applied to a few schools. I wanted to go to grad school because most of the agents, my peers, my colleagues who I have great relationships with, have gone to college. Some of them had attended grad school, and they were very successful in their field, and I wanted that. That was my inspiration. So, I wanted to be successful.

My dream school was Rice, and I applied to five other schools. All of them accepted me. I never thought Rice was going to accept me. And I filled out the application, it was a big effort. I really put my heart and soul into the application. But when I submitted, the first thought to my mind was, they're never going to pick me. Like, a top 20 business school is going to pick me? Never.

And then I got what I asked for, and I got it. And I had already paid my deposit at another school. I had already confirmed. I was selecting my classes. I was ready to move to Barcelona and do my schooling there. And then Sofia called me, and she said, "We want to extend the acceptance to Rice Business School." I pulled to the side of the road because I almost wrecked, and I started crying. It was such a pivotal moment because, like I said, people like me were not... This was not in the books for me.

And for me to know that I was able to not only improve my life but, you know, had a chance at a future, it was incredible. But the choice for the Rice MBA was because it was a top school in entrepreneurship, and I had read up all about all the great things that all the alumni were doing. I had a friend from high school that I had not seen in 20 years, which is the magic of Rice, I saw a friend from high school I hadn't seen in 20 years at the alumni reunion when I got my Rising Star Award. And I knew she went to Rice, and she loved the experience. And Rice was always one of those schools that was very highly regarded in Panama and around the country and in the entrepreneurial circles.

So, I made the decision right there and then that I was going to step out of my imposter syndrome, not be afraid, and just do it, and just step into it. It was a mix of pride. It was a mix of feeling inadequate. It was a mix of, "WTF, what am I doing?" It was something that I really wanted so bad that I didn't want to screw it up, because I knew that this was my ticket to not only leave a legacy, not only with my business, but hopefully with the school.

I wanted to do better for me. I wanted to do better for my artists, and I picked Rice as my top choice because of the entrepreneurial environment.

[26:01]Brian Jackson: And I mean, you did, kind of, ping on something I wanted to touch, which is like leaving a legacy, and you chaired the Entrepreneurship Through Acquisition Conference. You've later said that it was one of your proudest accomplishments at Rice. You know, why was that the moment that you picked?

[26:16]Javier Simons: So, that conference was my validation of everything I had built up for those two years. When Chris Frank built that conference, I attended the conference because I wanted to dive more into what entrepreneurship was. I had no idea what ETA stood for. Like, I walked in there with a blank slate. And when I left, I walked up to Chris, and I said, "Hey, I love this. I want to be involved next year. How can I get involved?" And he said, "Well, we don't have anybody, so you're in charge." And I said, "Challenge accepted." Just like my entire journey. My entire journey through life has been accepting challenges that I think I'm not fit to fulfill, but there I go.

I really had to deliver. And it not only gave me a chance to validate my experience at Rice, but to leave something behind that was going to not only benefit generations to come, but it was going to benefit the school. 

And the ETA Conference gave me the chance to not only use all the skills that I have developed through the MBA program, but also through my career as far as event programming, logistics, and planning and all this stuff. But yeah, it was a moment where I knew that no matter what happened in years to come, I did that. It was the second year we sold out. I got a personal letter from Peter Rodriguez. So, to me, it meant a lot. It was my validation.

[27:32]Brian Jackson: No, I mean, there are a lot of moments during the MBA and then even post. I mean, you received the Rising Star Award, and, I mean, that's a great recognition. You know, I think I was there when you received the award, and I think the big point was, it's just getting started. What did that mean? 

[27:49]Javier Simons: It meant exactly that. I think that, for me, life happens in... It's like a series, you have Season One, you know, it happens in seasons. So, my season at Rice had come to an end, but there was also another season coming after that, which is now real life, and it's just the beginning. I think that what I have achieved has built a really strong foundation of where I want to go.

I'm continuously delusional on what I want to achieve and where I am in life, and I don't think I'll ever lose that because... What we call delusion as an adult is what a kid calls a dream, you know? And we always need to keep dreaming. I think as adults, we tend to not dream anymore. We tend to just go by facts and figures and analytics and understanding what the results and predictability. And we really lose that charm, that innocence that really drove us when we were young to do things that we never thought we could do.

And I know that this is the beginning of something great, because I feel a big change coming. And I think the journey of where I'm at has only really begun. Like, there's pre-MBA Javier, and there's post-MBA Javier, and I like this one a lot better.

[28:57]Brian Jackson: Aging like wine is getting better, right?

[29:01]Javier Simons: It really is.

[29:02]Brian Jackson: So, if someone were listening today and they have dreams of building a career in music or live entertainment, but they don't have the industry contacts and really don't know where to start, what's the first piece of advice you'd give them?

[29:15]Javier Simons: The first piece of advice I would tell them is, don't give up. Like, really don't give up. It's sad how many people I meet daily that always tell me, “I really wish I would've done that.” And if you want to make a career out of it, you have to be passionate about it, and you really have to love it. People don't get into the arts for the money. The money is a good side effect of the passion and the work that you put in there, but do it because you really want to, because you really live it, you know? Have a soul and stay delusional. You have to continue to dream.

But if you want to start, for example, if you're an artist and you want to start growing, then hone in on that craft, and surround yourself with honest people. Don't surround yourself with yes-people, because I've seen a lot of bad artists that can't sing or perform, and they feel they're left out because people don't support them. And it's, well, sometimes that may not be the right path for you. So, also, stay a little real. But if you're able to produce, if you're able to play an instrument, and you're good at that, then do it.

If you're great with business and you want to navigate in this industry, find an artist and take that and become their project manager, build a business plan, put everything that you're learning in this program, put everything that you know in life, and treat this industry as serious as you would treat a full-time job, because this is a full-time job. If that's really what you want to do, find the right path. In Houston, there's so many amazing, incredible artists that need development, that need that push. And we are in a very privileged spot, because we understand how to build a business. The artist understands how to create the art. That's a marriage made in heaven.

[30:54]Brian Jackson: What's one mistake you've made as a founder that completely changed how you lead?

[30:59]Javier Simons: Money management. That's the value of the MBA. I learned how to create my financial forecasting. I create my financial models. I know what a balance sheet is. I know what my income statement is. Yeah, not knowing where my finances were was a big issue. Not anymore.

[31:18]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. So, how do you know when to bet on an artist before everyone else sees the potential?

[31:24]Javier Simons: The artist has to be passionate. You know, we're very fortunate that we get a ton of up-and-coming artists knocking on our doors that want representation. And, you know, being in the MBA, you do look at the numbers and the statistics and what a business model will look like for every artist. But all that is garbage if the artist is not passionate about what they're doing and invested in their own self.

So, I always look for that. If the artist has 12 streams on Spotify and has two followers on Instagram and has three songs and hasn't done anything with, but they're passionate and they're good, they have a great voice, they have a great presence, they have everything, they just need somebody to really take them to the next level, that's what I look for. It means more to me than an artist that has 300,000 followers on Instagram, a million streams. They're easier to monetize, but that doesn't give you longevity. That's where one-hit wonders come from.

[32:12]Brian Jackson: Well, Javier, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been just a ton of fun.

[32:17]Javier Simons: It's been an honor. I've been wanting to do this for a while. And I would love to leave everyone with a message. If you have any questions, please contact me. I'm an open book.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to connect with my beloved Rice alumni and current student network. I couldn't be more proud of what everybody's achieving. 

[32:40]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.

[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. Today, we’re kicking off Field Notes, a new series where experts from the Rice Business community share practical insights that you can apply in your own work and life.

Today, I’m joined by Marie Bergeron, director of career development for experienced hires at Rice Business. Throughout her career, she’s coached executives, advised experienced professionals, and helped countless Rice MBAs navigate career transitions. In this episode, we’re tackling one of the most difficult moments in any career — being laid off.  Marie shares a practical roadmap for the days after a layoff, from managing the emotional impact to building a strategy for finding your next opportunity.

Well, hi, Marie. Welcome to Owl Have You Know.

[00:48]Marie Bergeron: Thank you for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure.

[00:52]Brian Jackson: Oh, it's my honor, and you're our inaugural episode for Field Notes, so you know, your career, you've coached a ton of people. You've advised experienced professionals, and you've helped alumni navigate career transitions. I think probably the most difficult time for anyone really in a career is being laid off. What I'd like to do is try to make it as practical as possible. So, you know, let's imagine this morning, I got a call that I'd been laid off. Walk me through what happens next. What's the first thing that you would tell me to do if I called you?

[01:24]Marie Bergeron: To relax and process. You might be ecstatic because you hated what you were doing. You might be terrified because you have financial problems. You might be angry because you don't think you deserve this, right? So, you need to process first what's going on. Do not call everybody you know, but do let your significant others know.

You know, historically, people will withhold it for a while, and it's to nobody's benefit. But first of all, just give yourself time to process and let the people who matter know. That's number one. Number two, access your resources. If you've been laid off, your company may offer you outplacement services. That's how I got into this business. I was involved in outplacement, and those services are beneficial, and it's your last chance to spend some of the company's money because once you access the service, they've got to pay whatever it is. And some of those services are really helpful, some good databases and, you know, maybe even some administrative services and possibly a good advisor.

On that note, if you don't like your advisor, ask for another one. They don't want complaints, and you want to be sure you get somebody you can trust and who has some good experience. File for unemployment if your situation is such. Understand your severance package. Make sure your company, when they're called for a reference check, that they will say that you're eligible for rehire because people worry, worry, worry about reference checks, and all that a reference checker can really ask is dates of employment, last title, and is he or she eligible for rehire? And that's a very important question.

So, you negotiate that before you sign any separation documents to make sure that you're not going to be seen as somebody who was fired for cause, and that's the only reason they should not give you an eligible-for-rehire. So, you go to all your resources, make sure that you know what's available to you. That's first. It also gives you time to, kind of, calm down a little bit and understand that you're not in a desperate situation. Most of the time you'll get some sort of severance, and most people have some sort of cushion. What you don't want to do is frantically start applying for jobs that make no sense for you with a resume that's not going to get you there anyway and further frustrate yourself. Then make a plan.

And for that plan, you can engage me or the career center if you're a Rice MBA alum, or your outplacement firm if your company offers it, and make a plan. What kind of job am I looking for? Who am I going to contact? What company research do I need to do?

In today's world, we have all of our wonderful LLMs, whether it's ChatGPT or Claude or whoever your favorite is, and it's so easy to come up with the companies in the type of industry or whatever that you are interested in. You can even say, "Who has hired financial managers in the oil and gas industry in the last two years?" And they'll give you a list. It's absolutely amazing in terms of planning, right?

[05:01]Brian Jackson: Now, so this is the first 24 hours. You're just planning, understanding what do you have, where do you go, right? It's drawing the map.

[05:11]Marie Bergeron: Right. And that may even go for a week or so because you don't want to call people when whatever emotion is going on is going to show. You want to call people from a position of strength with an idea of what you want to ask them. You don't want to call and whine. You want to call and say, "Look, I've got this opportunity to try something new, to try a different company, try a different industry," whatever you're trying to do, and, "Can I walk through that with you? Can you brainstorm with me?" Anybody can brainstorm with you.

Anybody can walk you through ideas. Not everybody, and I'm going to guess very few people, have a job for you in their pocket. So, if you call and say, "I lost my job. Can you help me get a job?" My immediate answer would be, "Not really." You know, because what do I know? Whereas if you make a plan, you know what you want, you know the kind of companies you're interested in, and you have a record-keeping system set up so that when Brian refers me to Joan and Joan gives me a great lead and that lead helps me get a job, I can go back and honor Brian and tell him what a wonderful thing introducing me to Joan was, right? We think we can remember everything, but we can't, so you've got to have a good record-keeping system, right?

The other piece, of course, is getting your materials in order. And today probably your LinkedIn is more important than your resume. That headline better be a serious marketing statement. You have three lines. You need to sell the key selling points for your targeted role in that headline. People don't use that properly, but that's really the only selling point that a recruiter sees. But you get your resume in order. And by that, I mean you structure it such that it's very flexible, and you see it as a marketing document, not as a historical document.

So, you get your resume and your LinkedIn in order so that you're ready to implement the plan that you've made in a certain direction. A job search is so much easier if it's targeted. If you're just, kind of, throwing your resume out at different things, it's not going to work.

So, that's my initial stuff, and that could take you a week to get organized before you're ready to make your first call to ask someone to help you a little bit. 

[07:51]Brian Jackson: So, we've made it through the first week, then we look at the first month? 

[07:55]Marie Bergeron: Right. If you've just got two or three years of experience, the application approach has a little better chance of success. But if you're fairly deep into your career, and many of the people I work with are fairly deep into their careers, it's your network that's going to carry you.

So, let me tell you why. When a company posts a job description, you can bet a heck of a lot of people are going to apply for it, whether they're totally unqualified or totally overqualified for that role. So, hundreds, if not thousands, of applications come in, and companies can't cope with that, so they use an applicant tracking system, some sort of algorithmically-based, AI-based system to sort through resumes. And they use keywords, right?

The output is in the order of relevance, and relevance is number of keyword hits. And in today's world, most people have access to AI tools of some sort to be pretty good at those keywords, right? So, you want to be really good at it, and when it comes out, it is seen by a human, and a human is not going to read your resume. They're going to glance at it. And when they glance at it, those very important words better come up, either be bold, or bulleted, or highlighted in some way, so that human, who's usually an HR person and doesn't really know this role that well, can say good stack, bad stack without too much trouble, right?

So, if you do your keywords right, you do your AI with your resume right, and those words hit that human scanner in the eye, you've got a shot. But you're still just a piece of paper, and that's why networking becomes so important that you have to put your thumb on the scale and let someone in that organization know that you have applied for that role, or even before you apply. You need to talk to people, and maybe you find things out, very importantly, if it's a real role or not. Is it really an opening, or they already know who they're going to hire, but they just have to post it for EEO purposes or whatever? So, simply applying online is going to frustrate you almost certainly if your career is a little bit farther along.

So, you want to talk to people. People can give you ideas. People can give you referrals. People can give you support within their organization. There's sometimes two paths for resumes or applications, one is the online one, the other is a link that the employee can send you, and that's a referral stream of resumes, and clearly that's a better way to get in. So, you're constantly balancing, when was this job posted, and do I have time to find somebody internally before I apply, or do I apply and then assess the person? And either way is better than nothing, but optimal is if you can talk to them before you actually apply because they may have some great insider information that can help you decide to apply or not apply or to apply for a slightly different role.

[11:20]Brian Jackson: And then, like, getting in. Let's say you find a company you're interested in and you don't really know anyone there, but you're trying to get this edge. You can reach out to people and just call it an “informational.” Just say, "Hey, I'm considering something. Would love to pick your brain." Nine times out of 10, people don't respond, but the one out of 10-

[11:42]Marie Bergeron: One time.

[11:43]Brian Jackson: ... is all it takes.

[11:44]Marie Bergeron: Yeah. Well, there's levels of reaching out. A lot of people default to pinging people on LinkedIn, which to me is a last resort. If you can't find them any other way, sure, give it a shot. And a lot of people want to ping the VP level and up, or they want to ping the HR manager or whatever. And to me, it doesn't really matter as long as there's somebody internal willing to help you in some way. Sure, it'd be great to talk to the hiring manager, but sometimes they're not allowed to talk to applicants. They're supposed to follow a process.

But the process of talking to people, obviously, if you know someone personally, perfect. Secondly, if you know someone who knows someone internally and you contact that person and ask them if they'll help you with a warm referral, that's the next level. People don't use those second levels like they should. LinkedIn is very, very helpful when you know who that person knows that you know as well, and you can talk to them and ask them how well they know that person and are they willing to introduce you.

I do this all the time for the alumni and students with whom I work because sometimes it's the only way in. And I'm not their best, because I've met them here maybe. I've never worked with them. I've never been on a team with them so that I can speak to their skills and competencies. I can just speak to: They're smart, they're personable, they have this, that, and the other skill, you know?

And so, you try to find the person who knows you best. They're probably more willing to help anyway, and they can refer you and recommend you with a lot more credibility and someone that you just, kind of, met at a conference or something. But hey, if they're willing, you take whoever's willing to chat with you, whoever's willing to move you forward.

[13:43]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. So, what mistakes do you see people making immediately after a layoff?

[13:49]Marie Bergeron: Immediately start calling everybody they know and complaining and saying how they're angry and, you know... And nobody wants to talk to somebody like that. They move too quickly. But once you've had a chance to process, to plan, and to target, then you talk to the person. You say, "This happened to me. It's part of a big layoff. I understand why it happened. It actually created a great opportunity for me to look at something different, and here's what I'm looking at. Can you brainstorm with me about where there might be an opportunity for me to talk to someone at some company to try to get in?"

If you have a list of target companies, that's great because they say, "Oh, I know somebody at Meta. I can make an introduction for you." So, the mistake is jumping in in a panic state, looking bad, sounding desperate and not knowing what to ask for. It's like preparing for an interview, you know? You don't just go in there and interview. You do a lot of research. You plan what you're going to say. You practice what you're going to say so that you know the path you'll take. And moving too quickly is the biggest, biggest mistake.

[15:06]Brian Jackson: I feel like it's such an emotional experience, right? And what we're talking about is you have to almost bifurcate that, okay, I have my emotions, and you compartmentalize them, but then also you're trying to be strategic, and having the two meddle together isn't always great.

[15:23]Marie Bergeron: Compartmentalizing is a good skill to have, you know? And yes, there's emotions. There's people who immediately think they're going to be under an overpass with a tin cup, you know? I mean, you just instantly go to the worst outcome, and it, sort of, paralyzes people sometimes. So, if you can separate this as, “This is my job now, looking for a job is my job, and I'm going to have this face when I go to work, I dress differently than I do at home,” right? “And I'm going to have this attitude when I do this, and I can come home and cry and vent and whine, whatever I want to do. But I need to have my best foot forward when I'm talking to people so that they see me as a good possibility for whatever role I'm looking for.”

In the old days, losing your job was a shame, you know? You did something wrong because people were employed for life, so to speak. But in today's world of private equity takeovers and quarterly reports of profitability and whatnot, companies reorg constantly to make their financial outcomes align with what the market wants, right? And so, it happens so regularly now that it really shouldn't be as big an emotional outcome as it is, you know? And we do have to compartmentalize and say, "That's just business." Even though you think, "No, my boss hated me," or, "This one was talking about me, and that's why it happened." It happened, and you have to put that in one box, and the other box is executing on my plan to get to where I want to be.

And I've been at this long enough that I can honestly say that the vast majority of people wind up in a better spot than they were before. But it's a trudge. And I know it's hard. So, believe me, I do not diminish the emotional impact that this has. But I do know that those people who just dwell in it and stew in it don't do nearly as well as those who, using your word, can compartmentalize the task versus the emotion.

[17:42]Brian Jackson: Yeah. And I think if you dwell on it, what do you do? You lean into the habits that don't help you, which are staying home, being reclusive. None of that gets you out there having conversations.

[17:54]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. Don't stay at home in front of that computer screen. You do need to do research. You do need to look at LinkedIn. But use LinkedIn for research. Use LinkedIn to find people with whom to network. Use it to find out which companies are growing, and yes, look at jobs. That shows you where the activity is. That shows you a company that seems to be active, so maybe I go talk to people at that company. And do big and little networking. Big networking is being in a room with 150, 200 people, whatever, 30 people. Little networking is the one-on-one, where you try to talk to people individually. There's value in each, and you broaden your network when you go to the big networking.

So, go to industry luncheons. Eat that bad chicken, man, and just talk to the person next to you and whatnot. And if you just meet one person with one idea for you, it's worth it. And people say, "I don't know anybody." Perfect. You get to meet somebody new, right? And if you're not good at it, bring a friend who is good at it. I've told many students and alumni, "Come stand by me. I'll walk you through it. I'll introduce you to people. I'll make sure you circulate."

And I'm sure you have buddies that are good at that sort of thing. And this is a job. It's not meant to be comfortable. If you have to go out there and meet new people, that's part of your job. That's part of moving the ball forward so that you get the job within a reasonable timeframe. And realize that a reasonable timeframe is not two weeks. These hiring cycles are much longer now than they used to be. Five, six interviews is not uncommon.

[19:41]Brian Jackson: Even the onboarding... I mean, you could have the offer and then have to wait a month to even begin.

[19:45]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely, absolutely.

[19:46]Brian Jackson: I mean, it can take three to six months, I think is a reasonable window. And if it's outside of that, I mean, it just depends on what you're looking for, too, right?

[19:56]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. The market, the availability, the parameters you put on your search will increase the amount of time that it takes to get a job.

[20:06]Brian Jackson: So, when you're looking at someone, they come into your office, maybe it's been a few weeks since they've gotten the news, how can you pretty quickly tell that someone's doing their search from a place of panic rather than purpose?

[20:19]Marie Bergeron: Here's the killer, "I'll take anything." This is not helpful. This is not helpful. If you're networking and telling somebody, "I'll take any job," they have no idea how to help you. You have to say, "I think I want to go into supply chain or perhaps procurement," you know? And that way the people's minds can go to: Who do they know in those areas, right? And if you talk to them and you say, "Well, you know, I could do this, and I could do that," but give them a line that they can follow to help you.

So, if people tell me, "I'll take anything," or they tell me, "I've sent out 250 applications online," right? And I say, "Did you tailor?" And they go, "A little bit." I know that they're in trouble. If they try to use a service that sends resumes out, I know they're in trouble because they don't want to get involved in their own job search. They want it to be automatic, and there's nothing automatic about a job search. I have people tell me, "Can you give me the name of a placement agency who'll find a job for me?" And I say, "That doesn't exist." Placement agencies don't go find you a job. Placement companies work for a company to fill an opening. If you happen to look good for that opening, they'll talk to you. If not, they won't, and they probably won't remember you two weeks from now. So, if they do the kind of placement that you're interested in, you need to contact them on a regular basis.

There are services out there that say they'll, for the low, low fee of $5,000 or $10,000, they will guarantee to find you a job, and you need to run if they tell you that, because no one is going to find you a job. They will use all these methods that we've just talked about to try to assist you to do that, but nobody can do that. So, you are in charge of your job search, which is why I say plan, research and execute, because it is so much more fun. I know this is going to sound odd, but looking for a job can be fun. You reconnect with people you haven't talked to in a long time. You learn about opportunities you never thought that you might fit into. You feel, kind of, smart about the market.

And if you like people, you're having coffee with people, you're having lunch with people, instead of sitting in your office in front of a computer screen, and it literally can be fun. And I realize there's a financial thing, kind of, sitting on your shoulder. But it's something that you can actually enjoy if you're doing it right, because you'll get results. You'll have people that send you to someone that might actually interview you and whatnot.

[23:17]Brian Jackson: And you get to discover these new, unique opportunities that you wouldn't have considered otherwise.

[23:22]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely.

[23:24]Brian Jackson: But looking at jobs, re-entering the market, let's say you've done the application, now you've gotten the interview. How do you explain a layoff?

[23:33]Marie Bergeron: That is so easy. A layoff is an organizational thing. If you're not the only person that was fired that day, right? It is a reduction in force, it is a layoff. And if they say, you know, "Why are you not working at Chevron anymore?" "Well, there was a reorganization. A lot of different groups were impacted. They did the best they could. They treated us well. And, you know, I'm seeing it as an opportunity to try something different, like what we're talking about today, and that's why I'm excited." Again, in today's world where layoffs happen every day, that's not a bad thing. If you're fired for cause, that becomes a little bit of a problem, but we can work it.

[24:16]Brian Jackson: But we can work it. That's the thing. I think it's like the art of not... I don't want to say, “storytelling” because that almost acts like you're not telling the truth, but I think there are ways of using the right words to describe that.

[24:28]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely. Articulation. Articulate. And on that point, Brian, people will say to me, "I don't have that experience." And I'll go, "Wait a minute. Didn't you do this and this and this?" Yes. Well, you called it this in this industry, in this role. They're calling it something else. Why don't you figure a way to talk about it in their terminology so that it makes sense? And that is a skill, I will say that. But you can work with people to have them help you, or work with AI, "I did this and this and this in the healthcare industry. How would I re-articulate it for this thing over in the oil and gas industry?"

And I promise you, AI will help you with the terminology. It's a matter of language. But you have to make the translation in your own head so that you believe it. So, if you're skeptical of yourself, start practicing it on yourself. Talk into Zoom.

[25:32]Brian Jackson: That's a great point!

[25:33]Marie Bergeron: Talking to your cell phone. Make yourself hear yourself, sell yourself in the language of the new role, and eventually it'll feel right.

[25:44]Brian Jackson: Yeah, and I mean, words truly matter, and picking the right one or the wrong one is critical.

[25:49]Marie Bergeron: Absolutely.

[25:50]Brian Jackson: You can be underselling yourself without knowing that you've done that just because you don't know how that word is used in the new industry.

[25:57]Marie Bergeron: Correct.

[25:58]Brian Jackson: So, I feel like a lot of folks asking for help is tough, right? And it feels almost like it's a sign of weakness. But you have a ton of resources in the office. Why is this so important to have advisors, mentors, to be asking people's opinions? Why is it the smartest thing you can do?

[26:18]Marie Bergeron: Because everybody comes from a different frame of reference. You're kind of stuck in a rut. I'm stuck in a rut, kind of, right? And if you give the same facts to different people, they will come up with totally different ideas and nuances that you didn't anticipate, or you didn't think about. So, it helps you refine, it helps you broaden as well how you look at certain things. And each of these people have a network, and each of these people have lived experiences. And what you're telling them will cause them to speak to you about something or refer you to somebody that never would've occurred if you were just running it around in your own head and your own network.

I worked in outplacement for many years, and I went to South Louisiana, to New Iberia, where these people who'd been laid off… these hands out in the oil and gas field. And I was doing a workshop for these people that were roustabouts and drilling managers and all this. And people were not believing what I said because they were very downcast because they didn't think they could get a job. Oil industry was low. And there was a young man in there. He said, "Now, wait a minute." He said, "I'm going to tell you something." He said, "This isn't the first time I got laid off. The last time I got laid off, I was devastated. And I went home, and I told my wife, and she said, 'Oh, honey, don't worry about that. We're going to go out tonight. We're going to have a nice dinner and celebrate.'" And he goes, "Well, what the heck?"

So, they got all dressed up. They called their babysitter, young lady. She comes over, and she said, "What are you all dressed up and going out in the middle of the week?" And they explained, "Well, I lost my job. I'm trying to cheer myself up." And so, they leave their kids, go out to dinner. When they come back, this little 15-year-old babysitter sits there with a list of two or three names and said, "My dad said you ought to call this guy and this guy because they might have a line on a job for you." And he said, "I got a job from one of those names within a week." He said, "In my right mind, I would not have called my 15-year-old babysitter and say, 'Hey, you got any ideas for me?'" But it worked out, right? So, talking to people is absolutely critical.

It also will keep you emotionally nourished. It is awful to sit at home unemployed while your spouse goes off to work, and you know, you go, "I've just applied to 20 jobs today. I can't do any more," right? It allows you to have this blend of activities that you have at work, right? If you go to the office, you do a lot of different things. So, it keeps you motivated, keeps you going, and it's going to move you towards your job. If I had a room full of about 50 people and I said, "How many of you in your last job change used networking in some form?" I can guarantee you 90% of the hands will go up. It's just not done through job application anymore.

[29:29]Brian Jackson: That's totally true. So, you've gone through all the steps here. You've actually, let's say this example we were working through earlier, I've gotten a new job. I probably don't feel super confident to negotiate on a salary. But how do you still do that? How do you broach that and push for more?

[29:47]Marie Bergeron: First of all, you've got to consider what you put on the application. Many online applications now ask you for a targeted salary or a salary range or whatever. So, try to remember and keep records. Like, you know, you have to keep good records. You have to have good naming protocols for your resumes and keeping track of your networking contacts, right? So, depending on what you put on that application, you know, if you gave a range and they were somewhere near the top of that range, you have a little less wiggle room than if they came in at the bottom of that range, right?

So, here's my approach to negotiating. I did a negotiation this week, and he wanted more vacation, more salary, and equity. I said, "Choose two. Don't be asking for three," right? But my approach is to look at the offer, look at the benefits, make a spreadsheet. Here's what I was making, here's what the offer is, both quantitatively and qualitatively, so you really do understand how much better or worse this offer is than what you had before, right? So that you have knowledge. You're not just flying off the handle here, right? Then check out some resources. Ask Claude or somebody, you know, what a salary range is for this kind of job with this size of company so that you, kind of, know where you are on it.

And let's say you do want to negotiate the salary. I suggest that you do all that stuff, and then you call whoever... Whose name is on the offer letter. You email them or call them and say, "Can I make a meeting so that I can discuss and clarify the offer? I'm very excited. I'm so excited about the offer, but I'd like to meet and iron out some details." Make an appointment. Don't just call someone and start negotiating, right?

And then you go through items. I call it clarifications and negotiations, right? So, you say, "It says here that my 401(k) starts three months." "Yes, that's true," right? And you go through the easy stuff. Then you get to the hard stuff, the salary and the bonus or whatever, and you say, "Is there any flexibility around compensation?" Right? You haven't said, "I want this, got to have that." I actually had somebody tell me that they told their boss that they've got a new mortgage and they can't afford it. It's not his problem, right? You know. "Is there any flexibility around the compensation?" And they have to say something. They have to say, "When we set a salary, that's it."

But mostly they'll say, "What are you thinking?" And you say, "Well, I've done a little research. When I put that I wanted 175, I didn't realize that I also did this, this, and this. So, I think for this job in the marketplace, a fair salary is more like 190." You can let it go at that. And they go, "Well, we'll go back. We'll talk about it," whatever. Or a range, you know, 185 to 200, right? And then you just go through each of those and see where there might be flexibility. There's not usually flexibility on commission structure. There's not usually flexibility on 401(k). Sometimes there's flexibility on PTO, sometimes there's not.

But usually there's 5% to 10% play in salary. It depends how you approach it. If you say, "I want, I need, I got to have," it's a lot different from saying, "Is there any flexibility?" And they might just say, "No, that's it. We stretched ourselves." At least you know at that point in time, right? But it's good for you to look at it very, very carefully. And things like 401(k) match, things like stock options and whatnot can make a big difference in the total package.

[33:41]Brian Jackson: Sure, it can.

[33:41]Marie Bergeron: And sometimes the salary that's equal or a little bit lower may be okay, you know.

[33:46]Brian Jackson: So, for our listeners, I mean, we could have folks who are happily employed or actively job searching. What's one thing that every professional could do to make their next career transition easier?

[33:57]Marie Bergeron: Network. Don't forget that there are other people out there just because you're happily employed. I see it all the time. People get fat and happy wherever they're working, and then something happens, you know? Companies reorganize all the time, and there you are, fat and happy. Your boss loves you. He's been your advocate all the way through, and then he leaves, and they put somebody else in, and you do not get along with that person, right?

And suddenly you've got to do something. If you are networking internally and externally all the time, when some of these upsets happen, it's not as scary because you know people who work at these companies and people in this other department and this other group that you can maybe move over to when this new boss is not what you want. So, think of people all the time, all the time. You know, I'm aging out over here, and a lot of the people I know here at Rice Business are retiring and moving on, so I've got to meet all these new younger people coming in so that I'm still embedded in the organization, and then they don't say, "Who's that short lady over there?" Right? You know, you need to, kind of, keep your network active so that you have resources internally and externally that you can access.

[35:23]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining me. This has been really informative and just a ton of fun, so thanks, Marie.

[35:32]Marie Bergeron: I found it great fun, too, and thank you for asking me.

[35:38]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.