[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path Series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

[00:14] Jeffrey: I'm a paratrooper. So, I love jumping out of airplanes. I'm terrified of heights. That's why I love jumping out of airplanes.

[00:20] Scott: On today's episode of Owl Have You Know, we're joined by Jeffrey Mosley who obtained his MBA from Rice Business in 2021 through the online MBA program, with a focus on corporate strategy, marketing, and brand strategy. He is a young alumni ambassador, and he's helping design a global field experience for Rice Business. Jeff shares with us his background and experience through his time in the Army and his assignments in countries like Russia and Chile and others.

All right, Jeffrey, welcome to the Owl Have You Know Podcast. It is a privilege to have you on. Want to just jump right in, what interested you in getting involved with Rice and participating in the program?

[00:59] Jeffrey: Let's call it an accident, if you will. So, I've spent, at this point, almost 20 years in the military. I'm getting close to my retirement. But I had finished my job in Russia. I was in California in an advisory role there. And I had this wild hair of, "Hey, you know, maybe I hang in a little past 20 years and do a Congressional Fellowship." And yeah, having come from Russia and dealt with some politics and stuff, that sounded pretty interesting to me.

And I wasn't eligible for the fellowship. In a weird way, I was a little too young by their standards, and had not had enough time in my current rank. They'd say it's been kind of penalized for promoting a little quickly. And so, I said, "Well," I said, "I'm not going to hang around for two more years to try to apply and then do another four years. So, let's take a look and see what else is out there."

And about that time, Southern Cal and Carnegie Mellon had these hybrid MBA programs. And I was kind of looking for top-tier programs that had a hybrid format, and Rice was just standing up their MBA at Rice program. And I kind of took a look at it and I said, "Hey, you know, if I'm going to pick between where I'm going to spend time—Texas, California, or Pennsylvania—I kind of like Texas. I kind of like Texas a lot."

And so, I started digging in a little more. And I, you know, found the smaller cohorts and kind of the more the community feel. And it immediately felt like home. And I think Dean Rodriguez gets a huge shout-out here because, during the whole application process and everything, only one school's dean reached out to me. And that was Peter Rodriguez. So, that definitely solidified everything, is, this is probably a place that I want to be involved with.

[02:33] Scott: I love it. We'll dig into more of kind of your experience at Rice. But I want to rewind the clock and go back to, you know, you mentioned you've spent a career in the military. What was the original inclination to go into the military? And if you could share with the listeners a little bit about the branch of the military that you've been working in, just a little bit of that kind of origin story. Like, what got you there in the first place?

[02:59] Jeffrey: Yeah. So, I'm an army guy. And, you know, to be honest, I didn't really see myself in the military when I was growing up. Oddly enough, I grew up in Montgomery, Alabama with an Air Force base in my backyard—literally, my house backed up to the Air Force base. And had neighbors in the Air Force on both sides, but never really saw myself in the military.

And, you know, I graduated high school. I go to Georgia Tech. And that was about the point in my life that I realized that I had no clue what I wanted to be when I grew up. And it was a process of elimination from there. So, I did some time at Georgia Tech, ultimately dropped out, said, "Well, this whole engineering thing isn't what I want to be. And I kind of like this public policy thing, but I'm also at an engineering school, so this is kind of odd. And I really don't know. So, let's take a semester and kind of go figure things out." And a lot happened in the end of 2001 that really kind of changed things for me. 9/11 happened, and a lot was going on in the world.

And I said, you know what? I said, now is a great time for me to take a pause. Let's go in the army. Let's do a couple of years and kind of figure out what I want to be when I grow up. And I'll pay off some student loans and everything else. And then, you know, two or three years, I'll be, I'll be back in college with a better idea of what I want to do. And here we are, 20 years later.

So, I kind of fell into it, and I fell in love with it when I got in. And it was the perfect environment for someone like me that likes fast-paced things. And it gave me something that, at that time, college didn't give me.

[04:27] Scott: Can you talk a little bit about some of those things that the army experience gave you that college didn't in terms of just like, I don't know, I just imagine, you know, with... I've got a brother that's in the army, thinking about just like resilience and like pushing past fear and, you know, these kinds of things that you kind of just push your own boundaries and like re-establish the fringe of who you are and what you can do.

[04:52] Jeffrey: You know, I think that's the addictive part of it, kind of what you said, pushing the boundaries. So, you come in on a basic training or come into basic training, and you don't really know what to expect. You've watched Full Metal Jacket. And you've watched these different movies and you're like, "Er, I don't really know what's going to happen here. But I know it's going to suck. I know it's going to be tough." And you get through that. I mean, it's varied through the year, six weeks, 10 weeks, 12 weeks. You know, the program changes a little bit. But you get through that block of time. And you're like, "Wow, like, okay, I made it through that. And I did that. And it was tough, but I overcame it."

And no matter who you are, there's portions of your basic training that you are not good at or not naturally adept at, whether it's ruck marching or it's running or it's listening to people telling you what to do 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You know, everybody's going to find their own challenge in that. And that's kind of the goal, is to break you down and build you back up and make you comfortable being uncomfortable and comfortable with those things that you never would've considered yourself capable of doing, you know, in a previous life.

So, you get through that. And then, I think, there's kind of a division in the military at that point. There are some people that kind of get there and like, "Okay, you know, I've done that. And I'm going to go do my time." And then, they don't really push that boundary anymore as they progress through the military. And maybe they do three or four years and call it a day.

But the ones who tend to stick around are the ones to go, "Wow. All right. So, I just did something I thought I was completely incapable of. What's next?" And they kind of find those challenges. And you win some and you lose some. And you've got to learn to bounce back from them, because you're going to lose a lot in the military. It's just the reality of it.

You can be the best at anything you think you are, and there's someone in the military who's going to challenge you and who's going to be better at that. Whether it be physical or mental, it doesn't matter. So, you constantly look for those challenges, and it almost becomes addictive, because you want the next job that's more difficult. You want to go to airborne school. I'm a paratrooper. So, I love jumping out of the airplanes. I'm terrified of heights. That's why I love jumping out of airplanes. The first time you stand on that tower at Fort Benning and you're looking down at a height that's, you know, if you don't live and you fall, then you're probably better off than if you do live after the fall.

So, you'll look at that and you go, "Oh, this isn't so cool." But then you do it, and you're like, "Wow, I did it. I got to do that again." And then, you go back up the tower and you're standing there at the tower. You're like, "Why am I doing this? This is horrible. I am going to die." And then, you jump. And then, you're like, "Okay, I lived. I did this again. Okay. Hey, let's go get on an airplane and do this." And the cycle just kind of keeps going. And I think it's... for someone with a personality like me that likes to have those challenges and frequent challenges that kind of push you out of your box, that's a huge thing. And that's really kind of, what's kept me driving, you know, in the military.

Now, of course, a lot of that starts with the physical side, right? But as you get older, the physical side kind of wanes a little bit and you've done special operations, you've done, you know, Airborne School or Air Assault or whatever, and now you're getting into the really, really tough jobs.

You thought you had the tough jobs before. But now you're getting into the more of the mental challenges, which is kind of the state and the career that I'm at right now, where it's more about, more about the brains and less about the physical, which I absolutely love.

[08:10] Scott: And one of the challenges that I wanted to ask you about and somewhat timely, I know you spent some time in Russia with the DOD, what kind of led to that outpost and what were some of the things that you learned through that experience, and maybe any insight to some of the current geopolitical activities that are going on?

[08:30] Jeffrey: Super pivotal moment in my career, absolutely life-changing. I came in the military. I had a very wise family member that advised me that, don't take the infantry job, take something that's going to make you smarter. And you can still go do all the fun stuff, even with a smart guy job, as they would say. So, I came in with a background of satellite communications. I kind of left Georgia saying, I'm done with engineering and technology stuff. And I'm done with Georgia. And I joined the army. And they said, "Hey, you're going back to Georgia. And you're going to study satellite communications and get back into engineering. And I've kind of accepted failure at that point. I couldn't escape it.

So, I go through that portion of my career and end up in special operations. I'm doing communications stuff from them—a geek, not a cool guy. I'm just a geek. I'm a geek for the cool guys. But it opened up a lot of doors, through security clearances and language capabilities and things like that. There came a point where I had to leave and I had to go do something else. Tim Lehman, one of my mentors, he kind of said, "Hey, there's probably something you should go check out. Call the Defense Attaché Service." He's like, "Reach out to a guy, and you'll have an email and have a conversation." So, always take the call, right? So, I had the conversation. And, of course, Russia wasn't part of the discussion at this point. It was just, "Hey, would you be willing to come work at an embassy? We have a position." And I had three criteria—can I take my family and can I take my dog? And I don't remember what the third criteria was. But the main thing was family and dog. And the answer was, "Yes, you're going to be able to take your family. You're going to be able to take your dog." And so, I said, okay, like, let's go down this road and let's do this thing.

And I think what the military was looking for at that point is they're looking for someone who had the capability to learn languages, had the security clearance, and could do all of the things that I had been doing in special operations, which was, you know, build a team, work with a team, but also be completely independent. When you go to an embassy in Russia, the flag pole, so to speak, as we like to say, your headquarters is a long way away, all the way back in Washington, D.C. And they need people who can operate in that kind of environment that's kind of unsupervised and still do the right thing and still carry on, you know, what the nation wants, what the military and the presidential administration, the foreign policy goals, and everything.

So, you have all these things to do, but you're a long way away. So, there's a lot of rope to hang yourself with. So, they're looking for a very specific type of person that's going to thrive in that environment. And my time in special operations really set me up for that. And I was able to make that pivot from communications and special operations into a diplomatic world. I mean, definitely one of the best things that ever happened to me, because it's a tough assignment, but it was eye-opening. It was definitely a game-changer in the way I saw the world, in the way I saw, you know, our own government and the way policies and political things were decided. So, definitely, a life-changing experience for me.

[11:26] Scott: I suspect that there's a fair amount of your experience there that you probably can't share. But I wanted to ask, like, what is like your favorite Russia experience story, just in terms of like highlighting the nuance of being there in that kind of role? Is there a story that you can share?

[11:43] Jeffrey: The stories are endless, but there is what I can tell and what I can't tell. But I think what shocks me when I go around and from my cohort at Rice, which was a very diverse cohort, to, you know, working private industry things and getting around the world, meeting people, particularly in the United States, is how few people have actually lived and worked abroad.

And there's only so much of a culture that you can really understand through tourism. You can go. You can spend a week or two. You can see some things. And it... and it’s eye-opening. And everyone should travel. Everyone should travel the world. But living there takes it to a different level. And it takes you to a different... you just see more. You see more of the underbelly. You see more of the good, the bad. You start to see the people for who they really are.

And probably, my favorite Russian story, which has nothing to do with work, but it's really a culture thing, we had two young children at the time. In fact, my daughter was born in the states while I was already in Russia. So, I flew back for the birth. And then a few months later we had passports and visa squared away for. And my wife, Melissa, and the kids joined me. And so, Arielle was our baby. And I had my backpack carrier that I love to use to carry her around, which is just not a thing in Russia. You just don't see dads doing that.

So, here we are one Saturday afternoon, and Melissa's got my son. They're at a toy store getting a birthday gift for a birthday party. And I'm going to run to the market around the block from the embassy. And I've got my daughter. And she's in her little snowsuit. She's about six months old at that point, all bundled up in the backpack, beanie on, everything. It's cold outside. And I sat on foot to go to the market. And I walk into this market. And anybody who's lived in Russia will tell you about babushka confrontations. The grandmothers rule Russia. With age comes the ability to say and do anything. And they will correct anyone, and they just see it... You know, they say it like it is.

So, she comes out from behind her stall and she starts yelling at me and rushing, you know, asking me, where is my wife? And I'm like, "Yeah, why? At the store. You know, I'm here." She's like, "This is shopping. This is her job. And you shouldn't have your kid." And she walks behind me and she snatches my daughter out of that backpack, gives my daughter to her 20-something-year-old daughter, and says, "We will take care of you. She will watch your child. Would you like to buy any cheese?"

And I'm just... I'm sort of like, is my kid about to get kidnapped here? What is going on? And I'm getting a finger-waving lecture about how I need a new wife from this babushka, and this is what a woman is supposed to do. And for me, being an American, I mean, this is surreal. You know, we don't... you know, we don't operate with those gender roles the same way that the Russians do. And, you know, I'd like to say we've progressed a long way from that. But in Russia, that's still very much ingrained in their culture. So, you know, she had really, really good cheese, and... which is hard to find in Russia. So, I bought my cheese and I let my daughter play with her old-enough-to-be-my-wife daughter at the time and did my shopping and enjoyed the free babysitting. And you know, it only cost me a lecture on gender roles. So, yeah, I'll take it.

[15:02] Scott: Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing. That's fantastic. I wanted to pivot a little bit. Because I know that Russia was not your only foreign outpost and assignment. I understand that you spent a little bit of time in Santiago, Chile. And wanted to just ask you about kind of your experience of being in Latin America and, really, kind of the experience with the language and the people and… but just some of the challenges there and how those might differ from what you were experiencing in a completely different part of the world.

[15:31] Jeffrey: I'm joining you from Chile now. I haven't fully made the transition back to Houston. Although, it's coming here in a few short months. Chile was absolutely accidental. We stumbled upon this assignment. I was in California. I had started the MBA at Rice program. My time there was only supposed to be two years. So, I knew it was going to be short. And I got the phone call, "Hey, you want to come back to Russia?" And I was like, "Yeah. Yes, I do." I really want to go back and do that job again. It was great.

So, we agreed to do that. And visa negotiations fell through. And as things happen, you know, it's volatile times with Russia, more so now than it was then. But this is 2019, where it's still... we've, you know, we've PNG'ed a whole lot of people—PNG, persona non grata. We kick Russians out; Russians kick us out. It's a diplomatic game.

And at this point, visas were being negotiated at the highest levels of both of our governments. And the call came in and said, "Hey, you're probably not going to Russia. So, you can, you know, come back to DIA headquarters and work for us for a little bit and wait for a visa—DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency." That's my administratively controlled agency. And then, well, you know, I'm just not a big fan of working in D.C. That just did not seem appealing. And I know that those waits for visas can take a long time. Sometimes, you have to wait for an election to change things, you know, on one side or the other. And I didn't want to sit around in D.C. forever waiting for the next role and kind of picking up positions in a headquarters building, waiting on that next job. So, I said, what else is out there?

And eventually, Chile came up. And I said, "Okay, this is great. I would love to pick up another language. I would love to go work in a region that I'm not familiar with." But the language is key. Like, I've got to have some language training here, because I'm not a Spanish speaker. So, in a true military form, they make promises they sometimes can't keep, like, "Oh, yeah, we'll get you language training."

And so, I head to D.C. And I'm like, okay, we got six weeks to get you language training. And you need to get down there. Six weeks. Like normally, it's like six months. Six weeks, all right, lets... I guess we'll make the most of this. So, I got a six-week crash course in Spanish and made it down here just in time for the pandemic. I got down here about two days before they locked everything down. And, you know, it's been great. It definitely has slowed my Spanish capability, some. But this is a unique place to be and a really, really interesting time to be here.

I was still in D.C. when the civil unrest kicked off down here in 2019. So, I was just kind of getting familiar with Chile at that point. And in my spare time kind of working the regional ops in Chile desk at our headquarters. And then, I get down here. And it went from mass protests to silence, to quiet, because here we were in the pandemic and Chile was locking down. And it was super convenient. Not that the pandemic has been convenient for most people, but when you've got a nation in unrest and you've got a reason completely out of your control to send everyone home and to lock up, you know, in some ways I think it's, I'm not going to say safe Chile, but it definitely forced the discussion to be more political and more civil than just taking things to the streets. So, it changed the way things evolved down here, which was fantastic to see unfold.

[18:48] Scott: Can you share a little bit about just kind of the… not looking for any specifics, but just the job that you do working in operations and strategy, and those kinds of engagements. What is a day in the life like? What is a typical, again, whether they're in Chile or in Russia, or, just asking kind of generally, like, what are some of the things that you find you're spending your time on?

[19:13] Jeffrey: I hate the day in the life because they're never the same. And that's what I love about it.

[19:16] Scott: Right, super different.

[19:17] Jeffrey: But, you know, it's just a massively fascinating thing to work in an embassy because every day is different. But kind of the nuts and bolts of it is it's not about a person or a position or an individual. It's really about agencies and organizations and kind of how we all play in together.

So, obviously, I'm an army guy. And a lot of people go, wait a minute. We only thought Marines were in the embassy. And like, no there are security guards. But there are these things called attachés and defense attaché offices. And there's offices of security cooperation and all these different elements. We even have a science office here in Chile, where we've got Navy and Air Force and Army doing research grants on the scientific level down here in Chile. And that's just the Department of Defense. So, then you've got, you know, all these other agencies, state department, obviously, the big proponent of embassies. But you've got your law enforcement agencies. You've got the FBI. You've got DEA. You've got Secret Service in some embassies. Then, you've got, you know, agriculture. You've got U.S. Commercial Services. Within your state department side, you've got an array of sections from your political and economics and science sections. So, all these different organizations coexist in an embassy.

And at the end of the day, we all report to the ambassador, and our goal is to establish what they called an integrated country strategy. So, an ICS. And we collectively come up, we take the presidential administration and the cabinet, they all have priorities and foreign policy goals. So, we kind of take the overarching guidance for the hemisphere, for the region, or for the country from there. And we develop this integrated country strategy. And it's ultimately not as individual organizations as an embassy, what are we going to get after on behalf of the United States government down here? And we publish that document. And if you ever want to nerd out a little bit, you can go on state.gov and look up "integrated country strategies." And you can see what they are for every country in the world that we have an embassy and how we handle that. They're all published.

But then, you come into the individual team. So, we have those goals, but how do we get after them? And that's where somebody like me comes in, that I'm going to say, "Hey, we've got... you know, let's talk about..." let me pick a good topic here. "Let’s talk about crime and drug trafficking." That's a great one that we have to get after that involves a lot of different agencies. You would think drugs. That's DEA, right? Not so much because there's a political element to it that our political section is going to be involved in. There's a military side of it. You know, you go to some of these countries. And the, you know, the host nation's military are the primary proponents of eradicating drug trafficking.

So, there's the DEA side, of course, but there's also the DOD side of it. If there's civilian aircraft and stuff involved, you've got TSA and FAA involved and all these other agencies that exist in the embassy. So, we come together and we figure out, how do we get after that? How do we not step on each other's toes? Where can we take our DOD team and affect the outcome of these goals and, kind of flex our network to achieve the goals on behalf of the United States? But we also don't want to step on the other agencies. But we also want to do this the most efficient way possible.

So, sometimes, we have to sit down and look at it and say, "Hey, you know, this agency is really good at this. And my agency may not be as effective at this. So, we're going to let them run point on this particular goal or in this particular engagement." And that's where the strategy side comes in. There's a whole lot of networking that goes on understanding your host nation government, understanding cultural, the political dynamics, everything that goes into their decision-making process so that we can kind of saddle up next to them and achieve our goals together as the United States and, in this case, Chile.

[22:59] Scott: Very cool, really insightful. We talked about kind of the travel and the experience. In an assignment like yours, are you able to sort of visit neighboring countries and other things? Or, do you find yourself pretty well kind of within the boundaries of the country that you're assigned? Are you able to sort of branch out to Peru or Argentina or any nearby countries there? I mean, obviously, sort of pandemic, I'm certain, made that a little bit more challenging. But was just curious about sort of the flexibility in your role to be able to kind of travel when time allows.

[23:32] Jeffrey: No. The goal is to travel. I mean the... I want to spend as much time seeing the world as I possibly can. And kind of tying it into Rice, I'm largely here because of Rice. So, I did a GFE in Mexico City as part of my program, and—

[23:48] Scott: A global field experience, right?

[23:48] Jeffrey: Yeah, global field experience in Mexico City. And that was my, you know, not my first time in Latin America. I had spent some time traveling through just on, you know, the tourism side. But from a work perspective, I'm like, wow, you know, this is pretty interesting. It's definitely a different dynamic from the Middle East and from Russia and Germany and countries that I'm used to working in. So, let's see what's in South America. And let's see what's out there. And it opened my eyes to the business opportunities here as well. You know, we all have expiration dates in the military, and mine is coming up. And so, I got to go get a real job. And that global field experience in Mexico City kind of made me, made me think, hey, I still want to work on the international side. Like, I want to work in a company that does business internationally. And I'm probably never going back to Russia. So, let's start looking at places where I can pick up a language that’s going to be more useful, in a region that's probably going to be a little bit more fun to work on in long term.

And when Chile presented itself... and trust me, there were a whole lot of other things that came in between Russia and Chile, that were possibilities. But when Chile presented itself, I'm like, this is a no-brainer. Mexico City was pretty fun. And they're not offering me Mexico City. But that kind of ignited that spark to travel and see Latin America. And we've honestly been trying to do as much as we can down here. Chile really locked down in the pandemic, in a way that most other countries didn't. So, it was really hard to escape. And we were down here, I think, 18 months before we were finally able to actually go see and do something, you know, kind of outside the Santiago region. So, it's been a challenge from that front, but the goal is to see as much as I can when I'm down here.

Now, working in other countries is a little different. You know, you're only accredited as a diplomat to your, you know, to your one country, which is Chile. So, I'm not, you know, taking a quick hop to Argentina for work or anything like that. I've got to go through a process and get a diplomatic visa and all that if I'm going to work there, which I have done for a couple of countries. You know, never discount Uruguay. Montevideo is fantastic. Got to spend some time working there. It's amazing. But personal travel, that's the beauty of this job, is when you, when you land in another country, you can hop on a plane and go somewhere you've never thought of it pretty quickly.

[25:53] Scott: Very cool. Can you share a bit about just some of the opportunities and challenges of doing an online MBA during the pandemic? It sounds like, in part, in a different country, what were some of the unexpected challenges and maybe some of the bright spots of having gone through it?

[26:12] Jeffrey: You know, I'll start with the good stuff first. The pandemic wasn't all that. For the first time in my career, I was basically locked down with my family and got to spend an enormous amount of time at home with my kids and my wife. And that's not something that I typically get to do. Normally, I do travel a lot. And from that perspective, it was great. From the perspective of time at home and being able to work on an MBA program, all that time not spent traveling and bustling through airports and things like that, you know, that was time to study and that was time to get schoolwork done.

So, on that regard, you know, there were a lot of bonuses to the pandemic. You know, you always got to hunt the good stuff. And there was good stuff to be had in the pandemic, despite all the chaos that was going on in the world.

But on the downside, man, my job got boring. And... because when the Chilean government went home and shut things down, that made it increasingly more difficult to do my job. And there was a lot of time lost in the program, chasing things down, chasing people down, trying to figure out how to call contacts, how to make things happen, because no one's in the office to answer the phone. And they're all... you know, all of my counterparts in the Chilean government are scattered around. So, how do I get work done? How do I make things happen? And those calls, when everyone I was at home, you know, there was no, there was no boundary on that schedule. So, there was no, you know, 8:00 to 5:00 workday anymore. The workday just became a revolving, you know, 24-hour clock of when you could get things done.

And, you know... and a lot of counterparts of mine got out of the country right at the beginning of the pandemic and couldn't get back in. So, now you're not just dealing with people that went home and you're trying to track them down where they're at in Chile. You know, they're in other countries. They're in other continents. They're in other time zones, completely.

So, that's where it got a little chaotic doing an MBA program, because, you know, I had kind of blocked out my nights and my weekends and stuff for this. But suddenly, the workday had no bounds. And it makes things... you know, it made things difficult. And I like to think, with remote work, we've kind of got that locked in. Now, everyone's back home in some way, shape, or form. So, we're getting back to setting boundaries for remote work. But early in the pandemic, it did not exist. It was definitely challenging. And then, you know, the fact that the kids never leave the house, probably one of my favorite parts of the pandemic was the viral videos of kids busting in on Zoom meetings and everything else. I'm like, man, you know, that hits me right in the fields. I can relate to that one. I can relate to that one all the time—kids running in during class and you're trying to do meetings. And it definitely makes it challenging when you can't kick the kids outside and say, "Go play outside. Spend about an hour taking an exam or studying or whatever." Couldn't do it, so you had to deal with what you had.

[29:06] Scott: One of the, you know, opportunities for the MBA experience, generally, is to build relationships and network with your cohort. What were some of the things that you guys did to stay connected and build those relationships from afar?

[29:21] Jeffrey: We still do Zoom happy hours. I probably shouldn't, I probably shouldn't say that, but we still do Zoom happy hours with a lot of my classmates, connecting from around the world and having a drink every now and then. The interesting dynamic of a hybrid program when the pandemic hit is it was no longer hybrid. It was just normal. And everybody went to that model. And suddenly, the things that we had been doing for a while, everyone else was just kind of falling into for the first. And I would say that we had a leg up, you know, on a lot of people in that regard, because we had already, you know, proof of concept that you can have a cohort and you can be close and you can be tight from, you know, time zones and miles away via computer.

I get approached a lot by fellow government employees about doing an MBA. And all of... you know, almost all of them, they're not going to have, you know, two years in one location where they can do an executive MBA or nights and weekends or whatever. So, they've got to start looking at these online programs. And I tell them, not all online programs are created the same.

And the beauty of the Rice program is that it's intentionally small. And I love that about it. Because, you can't have a cohort of 200 people or 300 people and develop those relationships in an online format that you can get at Rice. Because, when you're at Rice and you're in those smaller cohorts, you are going to be on a team with everyone several times and do several projects throughout the duration of your program. And with that comes... you know, it's not just the class time that's spent together. It's that when you're working on a homework assignment, you're on a Zoom call on a Saturday afternoon for two, three, four. I mean, there were times where, you know, the capstone project, we spent, you know, six to eight hours in a run, you know, on a continuous Zoom call, working in Office 365 and hashing everything out together and running our spreadsheets and our PowerPoints simultaneously.

It's no different than being in the military. You build a lot of camaraderie when you're going through challenges like that, even though it's, you know, from miles away on a Zoom call. And those relationships are fantastic. I'm still very close with a lot of members of my cohort. We talk all the time. My last couple of vacations, I made it back to Houston. And in large part of, I want to see my friends. I want to go out to dinner and see them in the flesh and have a drink and let's get together and get the families together and everything. So, those relationships are absolutely formed, which is what I love most about the Rice program.

[31:51] Scott: You had mentioned your GFE experience. My understanding is that you're working with Rice Business now to kind of expand the GFE and do some things there. Can you share just a little bit of what you're designing and the anticipated impact for future classes?

[32:05] Jeffrey: Yeah, you know, and I'll go back to challenges of the pandemic, in regards to an MBA program. Because my intention was to do every GFE global all-site elective, everything I could do abroad, I wanted to do. I wanted that time in person with people, and I wanted to go see different parts of the world, too.

And the pandemic kind of squashed that a little bit. So, that was definitely a challenge. It changed my course load and what courses I had to take and how I accomplished things. But that's, you know, I love the global field experience. I love the overseas electives. Kind of going back to what I said about, you know, people that hadn't traveled and worked abroad, you know, I would tell any student in this program, do every single one you can, because they're all going to be eye-opening and amazing in their own ways. And, you know, here I land in Chile and Rice is coming down to Chile. And I'm like, wow. You know, I've got a network down here. I think I can help you out. I can make this better for you. And so, a conversation started.

And, you know, I love the entrepreneurial vein of the Rice program. And that's one of the things that Chile has to offer, is an amazing amount of entrepreneurship and small businesses that I think our students can really learn from, because of all of these businesses... What's the end state goal for a business? You know, we want to make money. We want to grow. That's what a business wants to do. And you're probably not going to do that in one market. You're going to have to expand beyond your own borders if you really want to make a good business model.

And there's a, you know, for an American MBA student to come down here and see these small businesses and to see them thriving and realize that, hey, there's a… they're going to grow. And they want to grow. And they want to learn from you. And they want to expand.

You know, I look at NotCo. NotCo is one of my favorite Chilean startups. They're a food company, but they're really a tech company. They're a food tech company. They figured out the AI behind taking a food product and making it from plants and making it really, really good. And they're a Chile startup. And they're in the states now. They've busted into the U.S. market. I would love to see them go public and do an IPO, although not this year because IPOs aren't looking good this year. But they're just a prime example of what a small startup from a country like Chile can do on the global scene.

And I really want the students to come down, and I want them to meet these people. And I want them to meet American ex-pats who've come down here and started businesses. You know, we've got wineries that are down here that are American-owned and operated, people who came down here and said, "Wow, that's really beautiful down here. I think I'm going to stay. But I may not have the Spanish capability I need. So, why don't I just start my own business? And then I can kind of, you know, make a living my way."

And that happens a lot down here. You've got the mining industry, the energy industry, so many different things operating down here. And these are opportunities for our future MBA graduates to get exposure to American companies operating abroad, Chilean startups, and international companies operating abroad. And maybe, we take those positions. Maybe, we have someone who comes down here who gets the spark for international work and travel and says, "You know what? I'm going to talk to Chevron about coming in, working down in Chile," or, "I'm going to talk to... you know, pick a company to, you know, one of the mining companies. Or, maybe, I'm going to start up my own company. And maybe I look at Chile as a place to do manufacturing or a place to resource talent from." And let's grow that international segment in the Rice community.

So, I'm super passionate about that. We've got a great GFE coming up down here. Adrian is doing great work on it, and so is Kaylin. And we really hope to kind of see the entrepreneurial and social impact side of what's going on down here in Chile.

[35:55] Scott: That's fantastic. Really excited to see more of that come together. Certainly, the global experiences that Rice curates and pulls together make it a unique experience. And the people that you're talking with, as you mentioned, come to you and ask advice on doing an MBA. What are some of the things that... or words that you use to describe kind of the Rice experience in advocating for their participation in the program?

[36:25] Jeffrey: You know, it's kind of like we talked about earlier. It's all about that network and being intentionally small. And I think that is one of Rice's biggest assets, is that they can have a MBA program in an online or hybrid format where you're still getting face time, literally, every day, I mean, with the right program. Every day I was on, you know, with someone, whether it be a classmate or professor or whatever. So, you're still getting that face time that you need to build that network that you would get in a full-time environment.

And in many ways, I think you probably get a little bit, a little bit more personal in your face time with people, because you are doing it, you know, at nights and on weekends. And, you know, outside the classroom setting, so much is happening, that you really develop these personal relationships that really will carry you into your career as you go forward and throughout your future. You know, I'm getting ready to make a pretty big transition in my life, as I exit the military and go into the private sector. I can drop job applications all day long. And we all know how that works—not very well. So, the best thing you can leverage is your network.

So, when I pick up the phone and I call one of my classmates or if I get on LinkedIn and I say, "Hey, I'm really interested in this company. And you went to Rice, and I went to Rice. And we don't know each other, but we, you know, we have the Jones Graduate School of Business in common. Can we have a chat and talk about your company and your role and maybe a way I can get in the door?" And you know what? No one's ever told me no.

And that's kind of one of the things that I think Rice carries forward is when that Rice alumni or that Rice student calls, you answer. And you don't get that in other programs. Those relationships are built. That network transcends your cohort in your class into cohorts, past and present. And that's something that Rice has, that, you know, especially even in this online program, the MBA at Rice program, that I don't think other schools quite have yet. And that's my biggest selling point for Rice.

[38:30] Scott: I love that. I see it every day. Jeffrey, as we wrap up here, just kind of one last question. I'm just curious, like, in all the cool things that you spend your time doing, what kind of hobbies do you have, or what do you kind of spend your time when you have some spare time? Anything that comes to mind?

[38:45] Jeffrey: Oh, geez, we can go on for days about this.

[38:48] Scott: Probably, a whole another podcast on.

[38:48] Jeffrey: Yeah, that's a whole another podcast. You know, I don't, I have a personality flaw in that I don't partially do anything. I kind of go all in. And it's a problem. I’m addicted to hobbies, as one of my friends would say. And I don't know, I don't want to tilt my computer here and make a bunch of noise, but you can kind of at least see one or two guitars hanging out the back. I love music. I’ve always been a big music fan. And actually, I wrote on my admission essay for Rice, you know, the essay for application, there was... I think it had to do with bucket list. And I described myself as... you know, I said I wanted to learn to play guitar. And I described myself as the world's worst guitar player. Meaning, for, you know, for years I would take an acoustic on a deployment. I would learn to play guitar on the deployment. I'd get home. I'd get busy training, family, and everything else. I'd put it down. I wouldn't touch it six months, eight months. Go back on another deployment. And I'd pick it back up again.

So, it was the constant cycle of forgetting... learning, forgetting, learning, forgetting. And I found myself sitting in D.C., away from the family, doing Spanish training, everything. I was like, well, I'm a full-time student at night and weekends. I'm a full-time student during the day in a Spanish program. And I don't have any family here. I need something to make myself sane. And I dove into guitar head first and started doing private lessons. The wallet just opened up and the cash and the credit card started falling out and guitar started showing up. I don't know, I've got like eight or nine back there now. And it's a passion of mine.

And I've got, I mean, so many others. I love sports. I love golf. I love mechanical watches and the science and engineering that goes behind them. And I even have my Rice watch. You know, some people do class rings. I did my Owl watch. Actually, I'm appropriately wearing that one now. I know the podcast can't see it, but I've got my Owl on the back of my Reverso there. And, yeah, that's a huge passion of mine. And I hear WatchBox is opening up a store in Houston. Maybe, I can talk to Tim Mosso or one of those guys to give me a job down there.

[40:56] Scott: Oh, this has been fantastic, Jeffrey. I appreciate the time and coming on the show, just a privilege. Jeffrey Mosley, online MBA grad 2021, and a part-time musician. Thanks for being on.

[41:08] Jeffrey: Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it. It's been a pleasure.

[41:11] Scott: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Scott Gale, and Maya Pomroy.

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path Series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

[00:14] Lauren: I realized something that I had really been missing was feeling every day like what I was doing had impact, where I could sit back at the end of the day and say, "Okay, what I did today mattered."

[00:26] Maya: On today's episode of Owl Have You Know, we connect with Lauren Miller, full-time MBA of 2014. Miller started her first business as a student at Rice, and she hasn't slowed down since. A self-proclaimed sustainability nerd, Miller is the Executive Vice President of Nature-Based Solutions at Grassroots Carbon, an organization also deeply rooted within the Rice ecosystem. Awarded the prestigious 30 Under 30 distinction by Forbes in 2015, Miller has a new title — that of mom. She shares her successes, failures, life lessons, and also, how being on the men's fencing team in college shaped who she is today.

Hello, everyone. On today's episode of Owl Have You Know, we are going to have a nice chat with Lauren Miller, full-time MBA, the class of 2014. Welcome so much to the program, Lauren.

[01:23] Lauren: Hi, thanks for having me here today.

[01:25] Maya: So, Lauren, you have had quite the flight path since your graduation from Rice in 2014. And I want to start from the beginning and your voyage to regenerative agriculture and sustainability. I mean, you really were in the industry of sustainability before it became an industry that is now intertwined in just about every industry, right?

[01:50] Lauren: Yeah. And as you said, it's been a very interesting path. I've been fortunate to work in a variety of industries getting here. And then with my current role, it's actually through a Rice connection. My current boss was one of my judges in the Rice Business Plan Competition.

[02:04] Maya: Yes, I saw that. So, when you came to Rice, you really jumped right in and met one of your... the members of your cohort and started a business together.

[02:15] Lauren: Yes. So, I had started the business when I was in my second year of the MBA program. And really, it was jumping in with both feet, because between your first and second year, you’ve got that internship. I got a great offer. I had really liked the company with which I had worked. And then I was starting this company for, really, a class project at the time, and ended up just running with it. So, fortunately, it had worked for a while, at least.

[02:45] Maya: Yeah. And that was A-76 Technologies, correct?

[02:47] Lauren: Correct. So, it was... it was started as A-76 Technologies. We had rebranded a few years later to make the Rust Patrol line of products under the Aidant Brand company name.

[02:59] Maya: So, tell me. Tell me about A-76. And let me just preface this that you do call yourself a self-proclaimed sustainability nerd, right?

[03:07] Lauren: Yes. And so, it was really funny because, when you're looking at chemicals, especially when we were originally targeting the oil and gas industry, you're kind of looking at that, going, okay, how on earth could this possibly tie to sustainability? But when I was in the MBA program, I was an intern with SURGE Accelerator, which was a clean tech and energy accelerator. I was working for Silicon Valley Bank. There were... I mean we were a team of just three people writing the entire clean tech investment strategy for all of SVB.

So, I always really loved sustainability. I'd started my career doing sustainable development, though largely with a more economic focus. We did have some water projects. And so, I always really had a passion for that. And I saw these corrosion coatings as a way that we could still tie that in. It was still speaking the language. It was still chemicals. Folks understood that. But we had a green product line that had no VOCs. And then, also, simply by switching to our products, folks could reduce their use of other chemicals by four x. So, that right there, it takes a huge toll in terms of your emissions and reducing it, especially when some of the companies with whom we were speaking were literally manufacturing plants next door to an elementary school. And you don't want kids breathing that.

[04:24] Maya: No, you don't want anybody breathing that.

[04:26] Lauren: No. Yeah, exactly. You don't want anyone breathing it, but let alone like the five-year-olds who are on the playground right next to the facility, where you're looking at the chemicals they're using and you're like, "Oh, my goodness. Like, yeah, nobody should be breathing that."

[04:40] Maya: Right. So, let's start... let's start from the beginning. Why did you decide to come to Rice? So, you're born and raised in Houston.

[04:48] Lauren: I am. So, I am born and raised in Houston. I knew that I really did want to come back to Texas. I'd been living in Virginia for seven years. I went to William & Mary for undergrad. And then I was in the D.C. area for several years, managing community and economic development, stabilization, infrastructure projects around the world. And I just missed it. I was kind of homesick, in a sense. And fortunately, my now husband visited Texas and loved it. So, we moved down together. He went to UT Southwestern to get his PhD. I got my MBA from Rice. And it just felt like coming home.

[05:27] Maya: I love that. It does. It definitely... I mean, it's coming home. And Rice, also, there's an opportunity here to really connect with your professors and their small cohorts. And it's really an opportunity to build that network and sustain that network for the rest of your life. So, you are very much a serial entrepreneur. I guess that's the definition of who you are. And so, tell me about your background and your family and what really propelled you to start all of these incredible businesses.

[05:59] Lauren: I have to say I think that having a family of entrepreneurs really helped because that's what you're used to seeing. Both of my grandfathers started businesses. My dad had started... or, he took over his father's business. But in a sense, he was an entrepreneur himself, because when he took it over, it wasn't in great shape and he completely transformed it. So, he's at an age where a lot of folks are looking to retire right now. And instead, he's just started another company. And so, he's rapidly growing that one. So, it's just a natural thing in my family of, yeah, sure, you go start a company.

And then, when I had stepped away from A-76 and I was in my, as I call it, my recovering CEO phase, trying to assess, see what I wanted to do next. I was again doing, in a sense, working as my own business. And I was working with other startups, specifically, doing early-stage consulting. So, I really like that early stage of companies. It's very exciting.

[07:07] Maya: So, tell me about the newest company that you're a part of, which also has a Rice connection.

[07:12] Lauren: Exactly. So, I had been doing the freelance consulting. And every year since I'd been at Rice, I had spoken at Hank Mooiweer's innovation class. Hank is an adjunct professor at Rice. He was at Shell GameChangers for 20-plus years. And that was actually where I first met him. When he was at Shell and I had A-76, we were talking about these corrosion coatings that I was working with. And when I was in the Rice Business Plan Competition, he was one of my judges. And through that connection, I was speaking at his class every year. So, he knew all of my career because, you know, it was often a similar story, but also just more of my background, the fact that my family has a ranch and everything. So, when he was starting this soil carbon storage company, I was doing my annual talk at his class, and we were talking afterwards. And I ended up joining, initially freelance, to help out with talking to more ranchers, since I kind of spoke their language. And it's so funny, just how these things turned out. Within a few months, I had joined the team full-time and have been there ever since.

[08:17] Maya: So, explain to me or those of us that don't know, how does Grassroots Carbon... how does it work?

[08:24] Lauren: Yes. And it's a very... it's a very new industry, so I know it's... people are kind of looking at this, going, "What is that? What is soil carbon storage?" So, basically, what we do is we're a broker or an aggregator of soil carbon storage credits. These are credits where every credit represents one metric ton of actual carbon drawdown and sequestration that is done through healthy soils. And the way to do that is through regenerative grazing practices.

So, we find ranchers who are engaged in good practices or also will train folks to improve their practice and actually draw down carbon in the soil. And then, we go... We take everything through this whole measurement process, certification. And then, we deliver those credits to carbon credit buyers. So, those are companies like Marathon looking to reduce their carbon footprint and also really invest in good practices and support American ranchers. And then, also, companies like Shopify where they have both their sustainability fund and they have a way of offering it to others. In June, they launched their Shopify Planet app. So, now, anybody selling through Shopify can opt into this app and ship carbon-neutral. And we're helping to support that. And so, it's something that also gives access for small businesses.

[09:38] Maya: So, it's carbon credit trading?

[09:41] Lauren: I'd say we're more of a project developer. We're not really trading the credits, necessarily. But I think, within a few years, we're going to see companies and people buying carbon credits to basically be a new commodities market.

[09:54] Maya: Absolutely. And that's something that I've noticed as well. And a lot of people are, you know, there's a lot more attention being focused on this specific way of really sustainability with... throughout the country. I mean people recognize the need for this, you know. I mean, the U.S. is one of the biggest carbon emissions, I guess. What's the best word for it, you know?

[10:17] Lauren: We're a big emitter. We do have a pollution problem. And that's what's so funny is, you know, really, pollution shouldn't be controversial. Just, I feel like not wanting to breathe dirty air isn't that controversial of a statement, or not wanting to have chemicals in your water shouldn’t be controversial.

The really awesome thing with regenerative agriculture and the carbon credits that can be generated from it is that there's really no downside. You start... You're improving your soil health, which is improving your water retention and improves the water cycle, which can reduce flooding. And any Houstonian who was there during Harvey knows full well what happens when the grasslands west of town have been paved over. And so, we have so many benefits from this. Also, the improved biodiversity, ecosystem restoration, etc., that there's really no downside for regenerative agriculture, especially when then you can generate these credits and put money back in the hand of American land stewards.

[11:16] Maya: Absolutely. So, let's go back to when you were in the Rice Business Plan Competition.

[11:22] Lauren: Yeah.

[11:22] Maya: You got second place, and then went on to, really... I mean, you've got a term sheet for your business.

[11:29] Lauren: Yes, we did. So... And it was funny because we were second place, but I think we actually walked away with more prizes than the grand prize winner. That's a little fun thing with the Rice Business Plan Competition is that people just throw out prizes left and right. And so, we ended up getting some that we didn't even expect or hadn't even been on the list of a possible prize to win. So, it was fun. That was a very exciting awards dinner.

[11:54] Maya: You know, the other thing that many people may not know is that you were named one of the Forbes 30 Under 30 in the energy category in 2015, just a year after graduation. So, wow, congratulations!

[12:09] Lauren: Thanks!

[12:10] Maya: That must have been pretty spectacular.

[12:11] Lauren: Thanks! Yeah, it was very exciting. It felt like a big validation for what we had been doing, too, because they go through a pretty rigorous vetting process. So, that was very exciting. And I feel like though I did get some help on that from, again, another Rice connection, Allison Sawyer, who had graduated a few years before me. Had actually been the one to nominate me for the Forbes 30 Under 30. So, again, it's just funny, these different Rice connections that have been popping up along the way.

[12:37] Maya: And so, what actually got you involved or curious about sustainability?

[12:42] Lauren: I'd always been really interested in sustainability. And that's both the environmental side, as well as the community impact side, and really, how those two tie together. So, with the first part of my career, I was doing that quite a bit. And the reason I was always interested in that is, growing up with a ranch. And again, it's predominantly recreational. We do have a small cow calf operation. So, I don't want to make it sound too fancy. But that said, you really see the impacts of the environmental changes and what that means. And when those occur, you see what that impact is on the towns nearby, too.

So, when there are huge droughts, heat waves, etc., you're seeing that first-hand because you're actually looking at the land every day. And during COVID, I had a really good chance to actually sit back and sort of reevaluate. It was one of those just, you know, think about my life for a minute, take a pause. And when I was doing that, I realized something that I had really been missing was feeling every day like what I was doing had impact, where I could sit back at the end of the day and say, "Okay, what I did today mattered."

And that's what I love with my current role at Grassroots Carbon, is, every day I feel like I've done something like that. I've helped a company figure out how to mitigate their climate impact. You know, that can be working with their supply chains. That can be helping them just purchase credits to offset their emissions, because at the end of the day, folks can only do so much to completely eliminate their emissions. And that also always is really exciting, because everything we're doing on the businesses is going to ranchers. And so, having grown up and seeing these rural communities get hit by so many different environmental factors, economic factors, etc., which all really intertwine, I can see what's happening when we put money back in the hands of these American ranchers.

[14:33] Maya: Well, and waking up every morning and just being driven, you know. I think that's what everybody's goal is — to find what drives you. And it seems like you have certainly found that.

[14:43] Lauren: Yes, I definitely have. And I love it. It makes it a lot easier to get out of bed when you're not going, "Oh, God, another day of work."

[14:52] Maya: Especially, being a new mom. So, you're a brand-new mom.

[14:54] Lauren: Yeah.

[14:55] Maya: So, tell me about that.

[14:56] Lauren: Well, so sleep, you know, that goes away for a while. We've actually been very lucky. He's very easy-going. And I've got like... My hearing's not so great. It's specifically in the range of babies screaming really terribly. So, it's kind of my superpower. Slept right through the night when he was teething.

[15:16] Maya: Amazing.

[15:17] Lauren: And it is exciting to have him, though, and especially working in sustainability, again, doing something every day that I feel like matters and is creating a better future for him. You know, when I'm done with work for the day, I can be proud of that and kind of be like, you know, "Mom did something for you today. Hopefully, the world won't be on fire for you at, you know, 15 years."

[15:38] Maya: It won't be. No, it won't be (laughs). We're going to... we're going to think positive.

[15:43] Lauren: Yeah.

[15:45] Maya: Because there's, you know, like I said, this is a... this is a booming industry. And it is... it is a bit in its infancy. So, you really opened the door and continue to open the door for this sustainability initiative.

[15:58] Lauren: Yeah. And it's very exciting to be at this phase. It is, as often described, the Wild West still. But it's exciting. And we get to have these different milestones that nobody's ever reached before. Back in January, Grassroots Carbon was the first ever company to pay American ranchers for delivered soil carbon credits. And we paid out over $200,000. And it was something too that is kind of emotional because it really impacted these folks. Some of them who had been doing regenerative practices for a long time where you're eliminating your herbicides, your fertilizers, you're really getting rid of all your inputs and having more cattle on the property but just rotating them frequently, some of these folks were being told by their neighbors they were crazy, it would never work. Well, not only have they improved their profitability over the years, but now they're also getting these big payouts. And year one, of the ranchers got over six figures in a payout. And he was visibly emotional at feeling like his practices had been validated. So, it's really exciting to be at this stage where we can show folks we're not going to use a stick to get you to change the region. Here is the carrot. We want you to transition. And we'll pay you for that, too.

[17:15] Maya: Well, as you and I probably both learned at Rice, the best innovations are the craziest, right?

[17:21] Lauren: Yeah.

[17:23] Maya: It's the crazy ideas that make the biggest impact on our world, the ones that people say, "No, that will never work in a million years. You're nuts."

[17:32] Lauren: Yeah. And it's so funny because everybody is looking at climate solutions at these huge technology-based solutions. And here we are, going, "You know what? Let's just give cows grass. Let's just move them the way they should be moved." And it's so funny because it sounds insane when you're telling people in the industry, but it's so effective. It improves profitability. It improves biodiversity. It improves the water systems, as I mentioned. And then they can make money off it, too. There's really no downsides versus with some of the forestry, you can end up, you know, you got to worry about, what if there's a drought? What if there's a wildfire? That's not an issue with ranching. People go burn fields as a controlled burn all the time. So, it's a really exciting place to be in.

[18:19] Maya: That's awesome. I want to pivot a little bit and talk about something that I think is also very important with entrepreneurship, because it is filled with trial and error, as we all know. And failure is a real risk, but it can also be an essential stepping stone to success. So, can you tell us about a time you failed and what you learned from it?

[18:40] Lauren: Well, I think what ended up happening with A-76 could only be described as a failure in a sense. But at the same time, it was a wonderful learning experience. So, ultimately, we ended up in a big dispute with the inventor. And I mean, it was just a mess, frankly. We had issues with our investors. And, you know, you never expect to get sued for somebody saying that you didn't tell them something when it was literally in the board minutes and the pre-reading materials that they had reviewed from five years earlier. It just seems like you would think that can't occur, but it did. And it was very stressful. That was a really tough time to go through that. But I think that was something that was a good lesson as an entrepreneur, is one like, that's as rough as it can get, I think. Like, you know, the company is struggling. We're now getting sued. You know, where do you go downhill from there?

But what it really did show is, one, the extent to which, if you have done what you felt were making the right steps along the way, you can look back at that and say, "Okay, I did do, what I thought I was doing, is the best thing at that time." And you can also see who will really stand by you and be your support network. It's so important not to get completely lost in your business and to have people who are still supporting you, so that when you are in a tough time like that, there are others you can rely on. You're not just sitting there, stressed, alone, crying out by yourself, going, you know, what's going on? You have a... you have folks you can lean on.

[20:20] Maya: Right. And did you... I'm sure that you probably leaned on your Rice network and Rice connections.

[20:25] Lauren: I did. Allison Sawyer, who I had mentioned, you know, she was a wonderful person to be able to rely on because she also had a company. And so, she understood just the physical and emotional toll it takes to be a CEO. And I also had, you know, great friends from that network. So, that was all really helpful.

[20:46] Maya: Right. And as an entrepreneur, I think somebody smart said that you don't ever actually fail. You either succeed or you learn.

[20:54] Lauren: Yes, it was definitely a wonderful learning experience overall, looking back at my time with the company, because there were so many different challenges along the way. You know, we had to do a rebranding two years in because we couldn't use the name A-76 anymore. It was too similar to 76 Lubricants. And that felt like, oh, my gosh, we got to rebrand. But at the same time, it was fine because we could actually now choose a name that we felt really represented what we were doing with the products. We could have these Rust Patrol products. And so, it actually turned into a great experience about just learning how to pivot, how to build a brand, and something along those lines, too, that we were doing at the same time. We had set out to be selling to the oil and gas industry.

Well, I think a lot of folks in Houston will remember what occurred at the end of 2014. And it was not great for the oil and gas industry. And 2015 was a really bad time to be trying to sell products to them. I had sales reps going on calls and trying to talk about Rust Patrol. And instead, the people are asking us for a job and if we were hiring. And so, that was pretty mixed up.

[22:07] Maya: Was it like, "I don't know. Send over your resume, let's see what we got," right?

[22:10] Lauren: So, it was wonderful, though, to see that, again, it was a huge challenge, but okay, wait, let's pivot. So, that's where we ended up going into other sectors, too, of ag, of retail, etc. And so, again, that just gave great experience in those other industries.

[22:28] Maya: And so, A-76 was a lubricant that was rust-resistant, correct?

[22:33] Lauren: Yeah. So, it was a corrosion coating and lubricant. And so, folks could use that to protect equipment that was just sitting in a warehouse after manufacture. It also worked as a penetrating oil to free stuck parts, or just, you know, keep things moving, too. So, it had a variety of uses. And it was really funny. We had folks, again, on the sales calls, especially when things were shutting down. Nobody was manufacturing anything. And this is what had inspired us to go into retail, is the sales reps would show back up, see how things worked. And these guys... and facilities would be like, "Well, no, we're not making anything. But I took it home and used it on my bike, car, boat, etc." And they were giving us all these testimonials and case studies. So, we went ahead and just pivoted.

[23:16] Maya: And that's the biggest lesson that you can learn about entrepreneurship, is that you got to pivot and you also have to listen to your customers and to those around you and to really keep your eyes and ears open, because you never know what gems are hidden inside, you know.

[23:30] Lauren: Absolutely. And that was what inspired us to even make an aerosol can in the first place, was that we were just selling in five-gallon or 55-gallon drums. And so, our samples were these little two-ounce pump bottles. And we didn't even have a price point for those. And people wanted to buy them. And if they were going to buy them, I mean, might as well... It was 2015. Times were tough in terms of selling to the oil and gas industry. So, since there was that demand, we went ahead to meet it. And the products are still being sold. They're... we ended up selling the trademarks and everything to our old manufacturer's rep. So, it's still around. And people like them.

[24:08] Maya: What's it called? I want to go run out and get some for myself.

[24:12] Lauren: So, it's still... it's still under the Rust Patrol brand. And so, we'd been building a great brand. And so, we ended up, after kind of everything we'd gone on with the company, ended up selling to them.

[24:23] Maya: Awesome. So, being a female entrepreneur and a CEO, there's definitely been a transition where more women have been given an opportunity to lead in these roles, as CEO and in those C-suite roles. So, what do you think are essential skills for female entrepreneurs?

[24:45] Lauren: So, for women entrepreneurs, I think a big thing is being resilient, because you're going to hear some stuff. And it's just shocking. Like, I remember being at a conference for startups in New Orleans, and they had all these swag... the swag out on the tables. And there were these t-shirts. So, I was looking for a size. You know, maybe I'd take one home for my husband, because they didn't seem to have my size. And this guy who's a... I could see his VC label and all on his name badge. And he asked what I was looking for. And I said I was looking for, you know, an XL shirt. And he's like, "Oh, here's one." And I was like, "Perfect, I'll give that to my husband to wear." And he goes, "Oh, I don't want to think of him wearing it. I want to think of you wearing it." I was like, "What? Excuse me, sir."

And so, I think just being resilient, recognizing that you're going to come across folks like that, and being okay to frankly call them out. You know, we're at a point now, I don't think we need to put up with some of the stuff that we used to, or that people were willing to put up with. There are so many investors now who recognize the benefits of women entrepreneurs, of how hardworking we are, that we can really get things done. And if you find somebody who does not seem like a good fit, like, I can't imagine being a woman entrepreneur with that VC. You don't have to work with somebody like that. You can find somebody who really is a good fit for you and who treats you with the respect that you deserve.

[26:18] Maya: Right. And you have to demand it.

[26:20] Lauren: Yeah, yeah.

[26:20] Maya: Yeah, those are... those are non-negotiables, so to speak.

[26:24] Lauren: Yeah.

[26:24] Maya: So, I do have a very interesting fact about you that I'd also like to discuss. So, you were on the men's fencing team at William & Mary. That's amazing. So, tell me about that.

[26:36] Lauren: Yes.

[26:37] Maya: And you... and you competed on a national level?

[26:39] Lauren: Yes, I did. And so, it was kind of funny because, yeah, it was just me on this men's team. And it was really funny, our coach was this 84-year-old guy who... The way he'd always phrase it is he retired from the CIA. That's because he joined when it was still the OSS, prior to even being the CIA, and had worked there for his whole career. So, he is a, you know, kind of grouchy, old man. Wasn't sure when I showed up. But I'd been experienced, and quickly earned my place on the team. And it was great to see how he went from being skeptical of me to being one of my biggest advocates. He refused to go to one of the national club meets once because the organizer wasn't going to let me compete on my own team. He, in less polite words than what I'm using, told the guy to go, "Stick it where the sun don't shine," and refused to go. He still sent us as a team. He didn't want to deprive us of that. But he wanted to make a big statement. And they didn't let me compete on the men's team. I was the one... I had to be at this like one-woman team on my own women's team. And, you know, I still did pretty well, but it was really fun to see somebody go from being skeptical to being that level of an advocate for you.

[27:55] Maya: And I think that that's true of women in business in general, you know.

[28:00] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

[28:00] Maya: It sort of mirrors... it mirrors life.

[28:04] Lauren: Yeah. And again, it's one of those things where you can see who your supporters really are, because I ended up with a great group of friends from the guys on that team. And so, when we had... when that happened, I remember I was, you know, just my one-woman team. Some of the guys would stand behind me, kind of like bodyguards, so that we could look intimidating and I didn't have to just stand there on my own throughout the meet. So, it was just funny to do things like that.

[28:31] Maya: Yeah. No, for sure, that's an incredible story. So, what does the future hold for you?

[28:36] Lauren: So, right now, I'm really excited about what I'm doing. I'm really enjoying the nature-based solution space. It's very exciting to be in an industry at its... at its infancy, because there's so much change that can occur from here. And I think that folks are starting to pay more attention to it. So, I love the idea that we can just work with nature to support climate efforts that can also, just again, have no downside and really support both folks living in cities, as well as rural.

[29:13] Maya: Excellent. Excellent. I love that. Is there anything that you would like to add that I have not asked you about?

[29:20] Lauren: Well, I just think this is always good for folks to remember at Rice. This was, I think, the best advice I got there, was, at the time, our Dean Sean Ferguson would always say, if you're not networking, you're not working. And that is something that I have seen over and over to be true. I mean, if I hadn't stayed in touch with Hank through the years, I wouldn't be in my current role. I wouldn't have discovered this industry that I really love. And so, remembering to stay in touch with folks, I think, is always really helpful. And remember, it's not always about just asking something for yourself. It's also asking how you can help them, too.

[29:56] Maya: And let's talk a little bit about Rice. So, how does Rice stand apart from other institutions? So, if somebody is looking at other, you know, MBA programs in the state of Texas and beyond, why should they choose Rice over another school?

[30:15] Lauren: So, this is actually... I'm stealing somebody else's words. But years ago, when I was thinking about MBA programs, where I wanted to go, this is when I was first looking at programs all over the country, I was reading a message board on Poets & Quants. I don't even know if that's still around. Maybe, it is.

[30:33] Maya: It is. It is.

[30:34] Lauren: Oh, there we go. Yeah, because that was, you know, 10-plus years ago now. Rice had come up on this conversation about MBA programs. And I was looking for something that was more entrepreneurial, because I've just always loved that. And something that somebody said on there that has just always stuck with me is that, with a school like Rice, they do things right. So, they were talking about developing our entrepreneurship program. And that is something that just really has resonated. And I've seen that with Rice, not just with the entrepreneurship program, but all sorts of things on campus.

Rice really does do things right. If there's something they see that can be a benefit to students, they just jump in. I mean, you look at the design kitchen, and that is such a cool innovative space. Or, now, we have Lilie, and we've got this whole entrepreneurship center. And there's so many different functions and ways that they work together across campus.

I think what the Rice Alliance does in terms of bringing together these different technology, intersections, etc., is just such a unique feature. And again, Rice is just doing it right. They are really creating wonderful ways for folks to intersect, to engage. And it can be something as, you know, partio, where it's just a chance where you're talking with folks and you never know what that's going to turn into.

[32:02] Maya: It's a very dynamic place, for sure.

[32:04] Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.

[32:05] Maya: It is. Okay. Well, we are so grateful for your time today, and we loved having this conversation with you.

[32:13] Lauren: Thank you so much for having me.

[32:15] Maya: Absolutely. And, you know, who knows? Maybe, little Logan, your sweet little boy, might be a Rice MBA graduate as well.

[32:22] Lauren: I know. Exactly. Exactly. Little bias around here, I've got an owl lamp in his bedroom, just to, you know, slowly start that subliminal messaging.

[32:34] Maya: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Lauren.

[32:36] Lauren: Thanks for having me.

[32:40] Maya: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.