[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

[00:13] Maya: Our guest today is Wendy Fong, Executive MBA of 2013, who has over 20 years of experience in culture change, leadership development, team effectiveness and capability building, and also operations. So, Wendy, thank you so much for joining us on Owl Have You Know today.

[00:29] Wendy: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:31] Maya: Absolutely. So, this has, sort of, been a pivot for you. You spent quite a bit of time in the corporate world and then decided to become your own boss and to become an entrepreneur and to launch your own firm called Chief Gigs, which, basically, it's leadership and team development and coaching and, really, building a dream team, right?

[00:54] Wendy: Yes.

[00:54] Maya: So, I guess my first question is, tell me about your background and, and how you really decided to, to make that change. Was that something that, you know, was spurred by the Rice Executive MBA? Is that what really drove you to the program, or was it something else?

[01:12] Wendy: It's funny because I actually started my business because I made a huge mistake, right? I spent 20 years in hospital operations. One of my last jobs in healthcare was associate vice president of operations for the neuroscience department at Memorial Hermann. And I had just such an amazing team of physicians that I supported and worked with. I built new offices, brought different capabilities to different hospitals.

And so, it was really super exciting. But then I decided that I wanted to make a bigger impact. And so, I quit my really already exciting job with great impact to work for a health tech startup. And I went from having my immediate team of about 200 people to about 10 people. And I realized, "Oh, shoot, I made a mistake." Like, the impact that I wanted wasn't the millions of people who would be using this product or the patients that we serve.

The impact that I really enjoyed, working at such a large organization, was that I could touch so many employees, all of the mentoring, all of the transfers that could happen because, you know, we had spaces for them to move up and, and so forth. Actually, after having been in operations for so long, I learned that my true passion was people instead of the operations, but it was just all so intertwined when you have a big job that you don't really realize.

And so, after that, I just tried to make my way to helping people as much as I could, which means working with companies. And so, I do feel like I'm doing the best work of my life now. I work with companies to help them figure out how to unleash the talents of their people. And sometimes, it means that this person doesn't belong or, or they belong in a different role, but it's that puzzle and helping them figure that out.

[03:34] Maya: So, maybe it wasn't a mistake, maybe it was just part of your path to really recognize what you're passionate about, right?

[03:43] Wendy: Yes, absolutely.

[03:44] Maya: So, you got your Executive MBA in 2013. Was that when you launched Chief Gigs, or was that later?

[03:52] Wendy: No, no. I launched Chief Gigs later. So, I had applied a long time prior to that, but I just never went. And then...

[04:02] Maya: Why didn't you go?

[04:04] Wendy: Actually, I had gone through a divorce around that time or separated, and that's actually what pushed me to start my MBA because I felt like I needed to just be able to lean on myself even more. And having the Rice MBA was definitely that security, right? And so, that's what got me to go back to school. And I loved it, and I love all of my classmates. And we just had our 10-year reunion.

[04:35] Maya: I was going to say you're coming on your 10-year. Yeah.

[04:37] Wendy: Yes. We just had our 10-year reunion. I actually just brought on a partner to my business, and she was my classmate.

[04:46] Maya: Ecosystem really makes a difference, doesn't it?

[04:48] Wendy: Yes.

[04:49] Maya: So, tell me about your time at Rice. Like, I mean, it was a decade ago. So, so-

[04:54] Wendy: It was.

[04:54] Maya: And you've, you've still remained very much interconnected with the university even 10 years later, which is something that is also important to highlight about the faithfulness and the loyalty of Rice alumni. And that's something that, if people are considering coming to Rice, that's something that, that they need to also recognize, that people once... I mean, you graduate but you don't ever really leave.

[05:17] Wendy: No. And it was so amazing because I went to undergrad at a big school, University of Georgia, right? And when people used to talk about, like, alumni network, I didn't understand what that was because there wasn't really that cohesiveness. But when I went to Rice, it just felt so different. I was in one of the biggest EMBA classes.

[05:42] Maya: I was going to ask you, how many, how many people were in your cohort?

[05:44] Wendy: So, I think we started close to 100, and I think we ended with maybe, like, 89. But I can say, like, the network is so amazing that I can say if I were to need a job today, I can reach out to my classmates, and I will have a job. They've got your back. If you haven't been through it, it's hard to really understand, like, what do you mean, right?

What does that mean? But, you know, we have, especially in the Executive program, we have classmates who are now CEOs of large organizations, business owners, you name it. And so, it's just an amazing network, which I didn't get until I went to Rice. Yeah.

[06:28] Maya: It's magic, huh?

[06:29] Wendy: It is. I love it.

[06:31] Maya: So, so, I want to, sort of, turn a little bit to entrepreneurship and your very first experience with that. So, can you tell me about that and how Chief Gigs really came to pass? Because obviously, you recognized that you weren't where you wanted to be and, and you wanted to pivot. So, tell me, first of all, how did you come up with the name and how did you build this from scratch?

[06:55] Wendy: It's funny because at the time when I realized, okay, working at a health tech startup wasn't for me, I tried to actually get jobs within HR. But for some reason, HR companies don't like to hire into HR unless you have an HR background. But I'm like, "Okay, but I've run a company, but I can't, you know, be-

[07:18] Maya: Right.

[07:18] Wendy: ...be your HR person." So, one of my classmates actually, he had led HR for an international oil and gas company. So, this is going back to that Rice network. He put me in touch with, I think, like, seven or eight people that he had either worked with or helped throughout his career and said, "You need to talk to these people to understand what their needs are, tell them who you are and you, you need to find your path. But, you know, I don't think that it's of an individual contributor in an HR department."

[07:51] Maya: Right.

[07:52] Wendy: And so, I did my homework. You know, I got really great advice that, "Hey, you know what? You don't need to be in HR to make that, sort of, impact. You can be a vendor, you can, you know, you can be adjacent to HR." And that's when I started really looking into what services that, you know, would intersect, right? And so, I went to work for an employee benefits firm, which services HR companies.

And I used to do the M&A for Memorial Hermann and this, you know, financial services firm. You know, we bought a lot of, a lot of roll-up in that industry. They really wanted my expertise of integrating acquisitions. And so, I got there, I learned all about, kind of, being on the vendor side of HR. And then I also was introduced to the Predictive Index at that company.

[08:47] Maya: Could you tell us a little bit about what the Predictive Index is?

[08:50] Wendy: It's like magic. So, the output is similar to any behavioral assessment that you would take, you know, whether it's DiSC or Myers-Briggs or, or whatnot, right? It's only two questions and the average time to take it is five minutes. And that's what I really, really love about it.

[09:11] Maya: So, what are some of the questions?

[09:14] Wendy: Yeah. So, there's only two questions.

[09:17] Maya: Right?

[09:18] Wendy: It's basically who you are, who you think you are as a person, and then how you feel you're expected to be at work. So, just those two questions, they've got you figured out. Most of my clients, when they first are introduced to it, they're like, "Is somebody spying on me? How do they know this?" But the best part about it is that all of the reports are in layman's terms.

Although I'm a business coach, I don't want you to need me, I want you to be able to read the report and take action from it without having to pay me extra because that's not where I like to live either. I want to talk to you about big strategy and growing and things like that. And so, really, I love it just because it's a model that anybody can use. Yeah.

[10:10] Maya: Absolutely. So, so, some of your customers are nonprofits, startups, and investment groups. Those are very, very different kinds of teams with very different kinds of leadership. What are the most important qualities that great teams have? What's something that often goes overlooked when it comes to optimizing team performance that you have found?

[10:34] Wendy: Interestingly enough, people's biases are so strong even though they don't know it. People tend to hire others who are like them. And so, sometimes I found entire teams all centered around, one quadrant. So, everything is you, you can plot people based on your answers into the world of work. And everybody is in the same quadrant with the same strength, but also the same, you know-

[11:04] Maya: Weaknesses. Yeah.

[11:04] Wendy: ...caution areas, right? And so, I think the most important thing is for people to be self-aware so they can say, "Okay, I know this other person might not be the person when I interviewed them, we just are BFFs right away and we hit it off. And maybe the conversation was a little awkward, but the reason that is, is because they are the opposite for me." And...

[11:31] Maya: Different perspectives.

[11:32] Wendy: Exactly. And, and I need that, and for, for leaders to understand, well, if you need that, then you have to be able to work with different people with different work styles. They might be introverted. They might need time to think it through instead of, you know, wanting to talk it through with you. They might need a lot more detail than you are willing to give. But they're going to be able to do their job better if you're willing to invest the time into that relationship.

[12:01] Maya: Well, and that's what it is, right? You know, psychologically, you do tend to gravitate towards people that, kind of, get you and you get them, but it's, you have to have patience and you have to have, you know, forethought of, of recognizing that not every one of those puzzle pieces needs to be a corner piece.

[12:19] Wendy: Yes. Absolutely.

[12:21] Maya: So, what are some of the important questions people should ask themselves to reflect on their professional performance and their own opportunities for growth?

[12:30] Wendy: So, I think one of the most important questions is how, how do others see me? Like how do I come across to others?

[12:40] Maya: And how do you get the answer to that? Because that's a really big, bold question because, I mean, your friends, are they really going to tell you? Or...

[12:48] Wendy: Well, so, the great part of the Predictive Index is that it tells you. Let's say because you are someone who is very independent decision-maker, you might seem overly aggressive, right, to your colleagues or to your direct report.

And so, what's helpful is then as the coach, you can say, "Have you heard this from your team members? Do they readily come to you with new ideas or with issues when they come across them? Or do you, kind of, hear about them around, you know, around the way?" Right? So, I think it really helps because leaders identify with their profile, and so then they're like, "Oh, well, if these are my strengths and these are the common cautions with these strengths, it could be true."

[13:39] Maya: And then you have to have that heart-to-heart conversation of, "You may think you're this way, but you aren't?"

[13:49] Wendy: Yes.

[13:50] Maya: It's a lot of self-reflection.

[13:52] Wendy: It is.

[13:53] Maya: So, what has been your biggest success and your biggest challenge with Chief Gigs?

[13:58] Wendy: It's so fun.

[14:01] Maya: It is. It's fun, but it's a lot of work to be your own boss for sure.

[14:04] Wendy: Yes, because you have to make yourself do work and then you're like, "Wait, why am I making myself... "

[14:09] Maya: Right?

[14:10] Wendy: Because I love what I do, it really comes through in everyday life. So, I've had the privilege of not having to sell. I actually have never gotten a client through anything other than a referral.

[14:28] Maya: That's the best kind. The word of mouth.

[14:29] Wendy: It is.

[14:30] Maya: Yeah.

[14:30] Wendy: And I'm so lucky. So, now that I have a partner, we're talking about expanding and she's like, "So, how do you sell?" I'm like, "I don't. I don't know. I don't know how we are going to do this because I haven't done it yet."

[14:43] Maya: So, how long have you had your partner?

[14:45] Wendy: So, she joined last year but we made it official at the beginning of this year.

[14:51] Maya: Oh, congratulations.

[14:52] Wendy: Thank you.

[14:53] Maya: So, when, when should an organization, kind of, take a step back and say, "Hey, maybe we need some, some coaching, maybe we need some optimization in terms of our leadership development, maybe we could be a lot more profitable and, and a lot more successful," so, what kind of questions do people need to start thinking about?

[15:14] Wendy: Yeah, so, I would say right now, everybody needs help, no kidding, just because the pandemic has just thrown everyone for a loop. And even if you think that people are operating well, they're probably dealing with things that they haven't processed yet in the last three years, right? And so, the uncertainty, the economy, the, you know, do I have a job? Do I not have a job? Am I going to get laid off? Like, all of this wears on people. And so, I would say before you start seeing-

[15:58] Maya: The cracks.

[15:59] Wendy: ...performance issues... Right. Before you start seeing the cracks is when you should really be engaging and building. Unfortunately, the issue with, I think, a lot of organizations is that they don't invest enough money into training and development. They don't invest enough money into HR departments. It's the entire company's, you know, issue, right? It shouldn't just be handled by HR. And a lot of organizations, HR doesn't even have a seat at the table.

[16:28] Maya: Yeah.

[16:28] Wendy: So, they're not able to say, "Hey, we need to engage our employees instead of just keep doing more and more work." But, like, instead of, preventing all of this, the HR department then has to basically just fill open spots.

[16:48] Maya: And so, you're also involved with the Valhalla Investment Group at Rice.

[16:52] Wendy: Yes.

[16:52] Maya: Tell me about the Valhalla Investment Group, and how you became involved, and how did you get your start in investing in startups?

[17:01] Wendy: Valhalla Investment Group was started in 2012. Apparently, I don't remember this, but I was at one of the first meetings. They invited the 2013 EMBAs to attend and that's how I was introduced to angel investment. I just didn't even know how people got money for their startups prior to that, right?

[17:22] Maya: Yeah.

[17:22] Wendy: And so, it was really fun. We initially invested in funds or in real estate projects, you know, things that were more, kind of, steady. But when I started working for the startup, then I got exposed to all of these other, you know, startups, and I, I, I, kind of, brought them in to pitch. And so, I guess, like, we just became the stable people who were organizing the events and everything. And we changed the model of leadership.

We decided, "Okay, so, people who are currently in school, they have a lot more time and a lot more connection. And this is a really, really great way to expose current students in this type of investing, in the whole startup ecosystem as the managing directors." And so, we shifted the people who were leading it to become board members. And then each year, a new managing director or directors are appointed and then they roll on to be board members.

[18:27] Maya: Yes, I know. That happened in my class as well. There was an application process that was fairly rigorous with lots of math that people needed to do in order to be considered. So, I guess it's coming on its 11th year, VIG. It's called VIG, right? Valhalla-

[18:42] Wendy: Yes, yes.

[18:43] Maya: ...Investment Group. For short-

[18:44] Wendy: Mm-hmm.

[18:44] Maya: ...it's VIG. And so tell me how VIG has been doing.

[18:46] Wendy: So, it's been going well. We have regular meetings, probably about six to eight of them a year. And actually, the investments aren't just startups. Some of them really are more traditional funds or real estate. But based on your own investing profile, you can really get involved in different things. And so, over the years, and the number might be a little off, but we have invested in over $8 million over the years. It might be a little bit more, but yeah.

[19:23] Maya: Going back to, like, a personal level. So, you are very philanthropic. Not only are you involved with a lot of other nonprofits here in town, but you're also a part of United Against Human Trafficking.

[19:34] Wendy: So, I quit my job and I was like, I am not doing, you know, what I want to do, what I love to do. So, I took some time off. And there's been another EMBA who totally agrees with me that gap years for adults is such a great thing because it really sets you on a better path, right? So, during this gap year is when I did all my research on human resources, I also thought about how I had always wanted to volunteer when I was younger, but I never found the time to.

And why not fill my time now with the causes that I'm interested in and then fill work back in, right? Because that's, that's truly how I want to live. So, I thought about what world issues I really care about, and it's human trafficking. So, I researched the organizations in Houston and found that United Against Human Trafficking is not only its own nonprofit serving the people, but they run a coalition of all of the Houston-based anti-trafficking organizations.

And they are able to bring all sorts of different organizations together, whether they're faith-based or not, to unify them in this one cause. And so, I really love that kind of community-building piece. And they've actually expanded into Lake Charles, and they've built a coalition in Lake Charles as well.

[21:10] Maya: That's fantastic. So, I've also read that one of your, like, goals is to move to Cambodia and start a nonprofit. So, tell me about that. What kind of a nonprofit? Would it be based on, on human trafficking as well?

[21:24] Wendy: Yes. And so, the reason I even really knew about it or learned about it was when I was traveling in Cambodia in 2010, I, kind of, saw firsthand how open it is. And I started doing research. I realized, "Oh, wow. It's not just in developing countries in Asia or, or, somewhere else. It's actually right here in Houston."

And so, that's what led me to being a board member at United Against Human Trafficking. But I do want to help on a more global level. And in fact, one of my friends, who's also an MBA, is doing a world listening tour right now of anti-human trafficking organizations, so that maybe we can figure out what we can do.

[22:19] Maya: It's a huge problem, you know. And, within Houston, it's, kind of, known as one of the sex trafficking, unfortunately, capitals of the world just because you've got I-10 and you've also got I-35, right? You know, very close by.

[22:30] Wendy: Right.

[22:31] Maya: And, and that's, you know, from Canada to Mexico and from one coast to the other. It's a serious problem that I think a lot of nonprofits are working with different legislatures to really squash out, to make it a thing of the past.

[22:44] Wendy: Yeah. And, you know, there's just so much within the space that you could work in. For example, financial literacy. And you're like, "Well, what do you, what do you mean?" Like, there are so many survivors who need just the basic education, and if you are a financial planner, could you help provide classes for people who are trying to learn and get their life back?

Understanding demand reduction because I also do think that a lot of people don't understand that a lot of the people that they're interacting with are there against their will, right? And so, understanding that this isn't a service that you should and can buy, like, that is helpful.

[23:37] Maya: Right.

[23:37] Wendy: Yeah.

[23:38] Maya: Well, so, so, let's also talk about something that you have overcome in the last, I guess, six months. So, in October of 2022, you discovered that you have breast cancer. So, tell me about that jolting experience, and how you've gone through that, and the treatment, and how you're doing now.

[24:02] Wendy: Yeah, so, I would say, one, get your annual mammogram. That's actually how I found, which is unfortunately a small percentage of the case. A lot of women just don't get their mammograms. But I got my mammogram and then they said, "Oh, you just need extra testing," right? And so, I was like, "Okay, so, I need a biopsy."

I did the biopsy, and it came back benign. But they said, "Well, we'll just send you to a surgeon anyway." And so, when I met with the surgeon, she said, "Well, you know, it came back benign, but it can become cancerous. And so, you know, our recommendation is that, you know, you remove it, but there's not really any timeline."

And this is maybe in May. So, I'm like, "Oh, great, I'm going to schedule this after the summer, after all of my trips and, you know, vacations." Right? So, I scheduled it for October. And what I thought was just a regular lumpectomy, which is removing the lump, she called me to say that it actually was cancerous but that the biopsy had missed it.

[25:08] Maya: Wow.

[25:09] Wendy: So, I was like...

[25:11] Maya: It probably knocked the breath out of you.

[25:13] Wendy: It did. I was so shocked because that just was... it had been there this whole time, this whole time that I could have taken care of it, and I just, like, didn't know or didn't understand. So, we had to do a second surgery to get the rest of it out now that we understood what it was and go through radiation.

But what I learned through this process was everybody wants to offer you food when you are going through illness. And you're not hungry. No. People are like, "Can I bring you dinner? Can I bring you food?" You're already so overwhelmed-

[26:00] Maya: Oh, gosh.

[26:01] Wendy: ... and you're just like, "I don't need food."

[26:04] Maya: Right.

[26:05] Wendy: You know. What I needed was... Oh, my gosh. All of these referrals take so long, and then when you call a doctor's office, and I, I was in healthcare, so, I know this, you can't make an appointment. You can't talk to the person that you need to talk to because you call them and then somebody takes a message and then they call you back. But you're in the bathroom at that time for, you know, every single time, right?

And so, it became so stressful just making doctor's appointments. And that's what I needed help with. That's what my husband did for me because he didn't have a job that... You know, he, he, he, he works for himself as well, and he didn't, he didn't go to meetings. He was more of a process person. And so, he's like, "Yeah, I can make phone calls if that's what you need." I'm like, "Yes."

And that was actually, this experience has become now a situational leadership course that I'm teaching with my partner because if we can actually give our employees what they need instead of all this other stuff, so, not food, but phone calls. So, if we can give our employees training, information, whatever, right? If we can understand that, then how much better would they be at their jobs, knowing that their needs are met?

[27:33] Maya: And knowing how to ask what those needs are in a-

[27:36] Wendy: Yes.

[27:36] Maya: ...tactful and a meaningful way, right?

[27:39] Wendy: Yes, yes. Absolutely.

[27:42] Maya: I think that's probably what people do is they're just like, "Well, I can, I mean, I can start a meal train for you," or, "I can do the..." But instead of saying, "You know, just be honest with me. What do you need? I, you know, I will do what you need, but you have to tell me."

It might be a good idea for a venture launch of doing this for people that are going through these sorts of health issues that, you know, you, you can basically say, "I don't need food. I need somebody to do this, this, and this." And then folks can sign up for that. But I think that just, sort of, the, the fallback of-

[28:17] Wendy: Right.

[28:17] Maya: "...Okay, I can, I can feed them. That, that I can do." Now, that actually just taught me that I need to ask very specific questions of what is it that you need.

[28:28] Wendy: Yeah. Well, so, one of the best gifts that I got was... So, a friend of mine, and she's so intuitive, but she didn't even tell me she was coming over. She dropped off a gift card in the mailbox and just texted me later to say, "Hey, I dropped off something in your mailbox because I do think that it's great to just not have to-

[28:50] Maya: See people?

[28:51] Wendy: ...be expected to see people." Right? And it was a gift card to the Blow Dry Bar, you know, the hair styling-

[28:58] Maya: Nice. Uh-huh.

[29:00] Wendy: ...place. And I was like, "Why do I need this?" But apparently, she knew I needed it because after I got the second surgery, I actually got an infection in my arm and I couldn't, like, do my hair. I couldn't really lift it. And so, I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is genius."

[29:19] Maya: Yes.

[29:20] Wendy: But how could she have known, you know? And, and to just drop it off with no, like, expectation of having to talk or whatnot. Like, that was really helpful. Yeah.

[29:33] Maya: Those are the best kind of friends, the ones that are intuitive and they just know. And every, every one of us, you know, have those two or three treasured people that, that just get it. Those are the fruits of life, right?

[29:45] Wendy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

[29:45] Maya: The sweetest of the fruits. So, what's next for you? Tell me about your long-term goals. What are you planning on doing in the next few years? I know you want to grow Chief Gigs more, but what's, what's next?

[29:57] Wendy: I do. And I actually have been talking to my partner about doing a new startup on employee engagement based on needs. So, instead of getting swag that you just end up putting in a drawer, what if you told, you know, a platform what you needed?

[30:16] Maya: Nice.

[30:16] Wendy: And the company can pay for a... Let's say my goal is to buy a house in three years. You know, you don't have to take any sort of tests or anything, but if the company knows that that's your goal, "Hey, we can pay for a financial advisor to walk you through your finances." Right? As opposed to, "Hey, we're just going to give you a blanket with our logo on it." You know, you can't buy a house with it, but you can keep warm, right?

[30:47] Maya: I get it.

[30:47] Wendy: Thank you, but that's not really what I'm, what I'm hoping for.

[30:51] Maya: That's awesome, Wendy. That's so exciting.

[30:54] Wendy: Thank you.

[30:55] Maya: Well, you know, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. I'm thrilled about all of these wonderful things that are happening for you. I would love to stay in touch and catch up with you, you know-

[31:05] Wendy: Absolutely.

[31:05] Maya: ...going forward. We really appreciate your time and, and for carving some time out for us. It's been wonderful.

[31:12] Wendy: Thank you. I'm so excited. And you've done such a great job with all the podcasts. I'm just, yeah, excited to be on.

[31:19] Maya: Well, I'm excited to have guests like you. That's the best part. Thanks so much.

[31:23] Wendy: Thank you.

[31:26] Outro: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe then leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Scott Gale, and Maya Pomroy.