Investing in Ideas You Believe in feat. Ben Mayberry ’76

0:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path Series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

Today, we're sitting down with someone who's done it all—built companies, backed startups, mentored founders, and even bred white-tailed deer. Joining us is Ben Mayberry, a twice Ricer whose 50-year career spans technology, venture capital, and business leadership.  He co-founded BSG, a pioneering systems integrator that grew from just two employees to over 650 with multiple offices before its sale.

Later, Ben launched Winston Sage Partners, an investment and advisory firm that has guided numerous small businesses through acquisitions, strategic growth, and executive leadership.

 As a founding member of the Houston Angel Network, now one of the most active angel investment groups in the country, Ben has been a driving force in Houston's entrepreneurial scene. He's also been a dedicated mentor and judge for the Rice Business Plan competition, helping shape the next generation of innovators.

Ben, welcome to Owl Have You Know.

[01:17]Ben Mayberry: Glad to be here.

[01:18]Brian Jackson: We’re very happy to have you join us. Like I said, you've had an incredible 50-year career spanning so many different industries. I mean, the breadth is incredible. When you look back, what's the common thread in your journey?

[01:30]Ben Mayberry: Well, I guess it's going against the thread a little bit, because I started my career at what is now Accenture. I realized I was way too contrarian to make partner on their schedule. So, I left at age 26 and started to work for myself. So, there's always been a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit or the, I guess, rejection of the corporate America and working on my own.

[01:56]Brian Jackson: Interesting. You said contrarian. It's a word that's actually been used to describe you and your perspective. You know, what's an unpopular opinion that you've had about business or investing?

[02:09]Ben Mayberry: Oh, gosh! Well, you're asking me hard questions here. I have to think about that. I'll give you an example early in my career. I was working for larger companies doing large IT projects. And the typical corporate group, you know, they had the 8:00 to 4:15 schedule and that you did as much as you could in that timeframe. Meanwhile, the projects had deadlines. And so, I often found that I was more dedicated to the project and more concerned about the success of a particular corporate goal than the people who worked there.

So, I don't know if I'd call that contrarian. It's just a different perspective. And that was also why I realized that it would be difficult for me to work in a large corporation, because the drive to get things done or meet particular goals didn't necessarily always align with people that worked in larger corporations.

[03:06]Brian Jackson: That's interesting. So, from coming from that perspective of working for a large corporation, but then to managing a large corporation, I'm curious, as a leader, has that impacted how you, you know, one, builds your teams, but also how you manage them?

[03:22]Ben Mayberry: Well, when we started BSG that you mentioned, we knew that we needed a different corporate culture. And so, in the late ’80s, where everybody was wearing coats and ties, for example, we started with no white shirt Monday and no blue skirt Monday. And that quickly morphed into business casual long before it was acceptable, even though, when we had certain clients where we had to wear a coat and tie, we did.

Secondly, in recruiting, we started with the best and the brightest. We knew we couldn't have people who would settle for a particular way of doing things. So, we hired high achievers. We trained them in what we needed them to know. And it worked for us.

[04:07]Brian Jackson: So, when you hire high achievers, I feel like they're climbers. How do you manage someone like that, where they've come into your organization, they see you as a leader, and they also want to be a leader, too?

[04:19]Ben Mayberry: Well, I'll just tell you the story of BSG.

[04:23]Brian Jackson: Sure.

[04:23]Ben Mayberry: In 1987, we started with three people over 10 years. We grew it to 650 with offices in Dallas, Atlanta, New York, Chicago, and of course, Houston, and projects all over the country. So, fortunately, we were able to promote people because we were always in high growth mode. So, we recruited at Rice, UT, and A&M in Texas. And during that process, at Rice, we'd hire from any major, which was contrary to what you do in an IT consulting company. But we found that English majors usually had a 700 math SAT so we could teach them what we needed and they had good writing skills and good communication skills. And at A&M and UT, we would recruit from computer science and their MIS degree. And because we were hiring the top of the class, they understood that they needed to be promoted to succeed. 

And so, as we are… if you're growing a company, there's always new leadership positions. So, it's not a problem.

And today, I can point to, I don't know, dozens of people we hired that went on to become entrepreneurs or successful company CEOs, and some successful in corporate America, because those are the type we hired. In 1993, we hired 20-plus Rice undergrads and 5% of the Jones School. So, in the April Fools edition of the Thresher on the back page, it said, “Attention, graduating seniors. Those going to work for BSG will have your final senior lecture held at the Hamman Auditorium. All other graduates will meet in the janitor's closet at Anderson Hall.”

[06:04]Brian Jackson: Oh, that's awesome. So, you've brought on a ton of recently graduated folks. I mean, that comes with mentorship. And, you know, beyond BSG and even Winston Sage, like, you've mentored countless entrepreneurs. I think, with mentorship, we always think of advice. I'd be curious, like, what's the best piece of advice, one, you ever received? And then, two, what's the best piece of advice you've given to those you've mentored?

[06:31]Ben Mayberry: I don’t know if it's the best piece of advice, but I remember the first time, I was in my early 20s, mid-20s, I joined a breakfast club of people who each came from different professions. And we had this older guy talking to us. He had a wool spinning company, as I recall. And he said, “You have to have a gross margin of at least 50% or you're not going to succeed.” And that wasn't necessarily startup advice, but I still think about that today. The other piece of advice came from Jerry Finger at the Rice Business Plan Competition, who would give a speech every year. And he would say in this speech as he rambled on during dinner, “Cash flow is more important than your mother.”

[07:18]Brian Jackson: Wow.

[07:18]Ben Mayberry: So, he said that with emphasis.

[07:20]Brian Jackson: Emphatically. And you've remembered it all these years.

[07:24]Ben Mayberry: Yeah. But each entrepreneur is, especially if they're in a startup, is unique. They have some traits in common. They're generally stubborn. They don't listen as well as they should. And so, you have to figure out if they're willing to listen at all. If not, you move on. If they're willing to listen, then you're able to give them advice. And it's based on, you know, CEO doesn't have it all. They may be technical, they may be good at sales, they may be good at marketing, but they're rarely good at all of those. So, you've got to figure out where their weakness is and attack that and help them understand that's really where they need help.

[07:58]Brian Jackson: So, be interested in knowing more about Winston Sage Partners. And also curious about the name.

[08:05]Ben Mayberry: Okay, so, I formed a partnership. When we sold BSG, there's a guy that I hired as our head of sales, Richard Scruggs, and we decided to form a partnership. And he wanted to call it Olivaria or some other random name. I thought Scruggsberry sounded really good. He was equally offended. And at the time, we were fishing in the Clark Fork River. He looked at his Winston fly rod and my Sage fly rod, and he said, “How about Winston Sage Partners?” And so, that's how the name was born.

So, Winston Sage did some M&A deals. We worked with a venture capitalist out of Toronto to help them find energy technology deals to invest in. We did interim management roles. We made some strategic investments, some of which have paid off and some didn't. We bought a grass farm or sod farm and kept that for several years. The sod farm never made any money, but the land appreciated, which made up for it. And lots of adult supervision for small companies.

[09:05]Brian Jackson: So, forming a partnership, I think it has to be one of the more challenging of relationships to enter into. It's that marriage of, you know, a bit of friendship, but also business. Curious about your Winston to Sage. When you look for a partner, what are you looking for? And what were the strengths from that partnership that, maybe, you know, folks could learn from?

[09:25]Ben Mayberry: Well, first of all, you… I mean, it's good if you have a strong friendship because you're going to agree to disagree now and then. You have to understand what the revenue sharing is, what each person contributes, whether you're going to hire people; if so, what type of people? You need to see some ground rules with the ability to change them when necessary. And Richard and I had complementary skills. It was easy for us to switch roles or pick up where the other one left off if there were other issues that needed to be addressed. But the main thing is, if you have an issue, you need to hit it head on and discuss it rather than let it linger or fester.

[10:04]Brian Jackson: So, you were one of the early founders of the Houston Angel Network. You served as a second president. I'm curious about the original vision of the network, and then also really curious about how it's evolved over time.

[10:18]Ben Mayberry: Well, the early debates when we founded it is, what were the criteria for investing, for example? There was one school of thought that said, “Well, if you aren't going to invest at least $100,000 in a company, you shouldn't be a member.” There was a contrasting view that said, “We should open this to smaller entrepreneurs or investors so that we can have a larger membership because the venture capital community is the one that makes the larger investments and follow-up investments in companies.”

So, in the end, the criteria for joining were accredited investor, willingness to invest, and not be a felon. That was pretty much it. So, membership came from people from the oil and gas community, from entrepreneurs, from people who were members of family office or had a trust and the like. So, it was a mixed bag. We invested in technology, science, and medical biotech, and consumer products, and things like that.

And so, as it evolved, we found that there were some people who would join and didn't invest. And there was, at our board meetings, we would debate whether or not we should kick those people out after two years if they didn't make any investments. And my argument was, well, they're going to introduce the Houston Angel Network to their friends. They may bring us deals. So, I don't really care if they invest or not. We want to expand the membership and be all-inclusive if we can. And who knows, they may see something they like that they want to invest in. But, you know, I know you don't want this to be a social club, but the fact is, you join to invest and to meet other people from other disciplines that you otherwise wouldn't know at all. So, that was my position, which I think has largely stood over the decades. And they’ve been very active over the past 20 years.

Our first success was a company called Sweet Leaf Tea. And, you know, the criteria you want in a startup, if they've done it before, is there a ready market for their product? Is there a path to profitability? And they've got to get a plan for that. So, Sweet Leaf Tea showed up. They'd never done it before. They did have revenue. And there was a market for their product, because I couldn't find a bottled tea that I really liked. So, we invested three quarters of a million dollars as a group. And it paid off about, I think, eight times revenue after about six years.

[12:43]Brian Jackson: That's great.

[12:44]Ben Mayberry: And so, that was a nice success. And we'd had many failures, of course. But that success, in particular, urged us to continue to invest. And the deals just get better and better.

[12:57]Brian Jackson: So, I guess the road to success is, kind of, paved with a lot of, you know, I'm not going to say failures, but not total successes. But you keep trucking on. Is it the spirit of it? Is it the excitement of the win? You know, what's driving you to continue to be involved, I guess, entrepreneurially?

[13:14]Ben Mayberry: Well, it's several things. Whether you invest or not, you want entrepreneurs to be successful. So, you can help them succeed in many ways. You can invest or you can be their mentor. You can make introductions. But if you've had startups yourself, you understand how difficult it is. And you always want to help other people who are doing the same thing.

I'll give you a recent example. I decided I wasn't going to make any more investments. But I needed a new e-bike, so I was researching e-bikes and found this company called Euphree, E-U-P-H-R-E-E, for, “Are you free to go bike-riding?” And they were in Houston. So, I went over there on a Sunday afternoon. It said they were open. They weren't. And I dialed the 1-800 number. Nobody answered. But a minute later, this guy calls me back. I said, “Well, I thought your shop was open.” He says, “Oh, well, you know, I'll be there in five minutes.” And this guy rides up in a bike, and he's a former Exxon engineer who decided he wanted to do something different.

So, he designed a bike for his sister. He said, “You know, there's no good bikes out there.” So, he designed an e-bike. And I really liked it. So, I bought one. And I ended up investing in his company. And he's done very well over the past four years. It's a crowded space, but he's got the supply chain he needs. And I got a couple other people to invest. And I'm mentoring from time to time. So, I invested in him because I believed in the product and believed in him. And so, there I was, investing all over again.

[14:45]Brian Jackson: Wow. I want to pivot a little bit over to Rice.

[14:48]Ben Mayberry: Okay.

[14:48]Brian Jackson: You know, you were in one of the first MAcc cohorts. And it was in 1976. You know, what do you remember most about the experience? And, really, you know, how did the MAcc program help to shape your career?

[15:01]Ben Mayberry: I became an accidental MAcco. And then over a 10-year period, the MAcc program slowly grew. They had the Masters of Public and Business, MBPA. I don't even remember exactly what it stands for. But it wasn't an MBA that they gave back then. It was an MBPA. They did that for several years. Do you know the history of how school transitioned in the ’90s?

[15:27]Brian Jackson: I know a bit of it. I know that there was at one point of review, and they had talked about closing it down.

[15:33]Ben Mayberry: That's right. So, the first dean was Dr. Robert Sterling. He was a world-renowned accountant. But he was, you know, a hard charging guy. He was followed by Dr. Francis Tuggle. And then they brought in Ben Baylor, who was the former postmaster general and did not have a Ph.D., which was, kind of, unusual for a dean of a business school. It was a bit of an experiment.

He did have the forethought to start the Jones School Partners, of which I was a founder. I think it's called Rice Business Partners now. It was supposed to be an affinity group to bring people in from outside the hedges, corporations. And it's a way to bring people who were not Rice grads or familiar with Rice to the campus.

And it worked pretty well. But when it was time to replace him, the school was just bumping along, and they brought in a committee, which included Gil Whitaker. Gil was the retired dean of the University of Michigan, Rice grad of ‘53. And their conclusion was that they needed to get serious about having a business school or shut it down.

And my first meeting with Gil was the Jones School Partners. He met with us. And he says, “I've got five things I want to accomplish. I want to double the size of the enrollment, double the size of the faculty, raise money independently of the university, seek accreditation,” because the school was not accredited at the time, “and build a new building.” And I said, “Gil, did you just come from Valhalla?”

Interestingly enough, within 18 months, they were breaking ground on the new building. And Gil also said, to become a great business school, you have to be on somebody's top 20 list. And during his tenure, we barely hit somebody's top 20 list in a category. And when Dean Glick came on, he greatly expanded our part time master's program, which you've been a benefit of. And we started showing up, not only on top 10 lists, but at the very end of his tenure, I think we were ranked number one in finance and number one in entrepreneurship by a couple of different rankings. 

[17:41]Brian Jackson: Well, you've been deeply involved with Rice Business. I mean, even before we started talking on the podcast, we were sharing that we've both been on the alumni association board. So, from doing, you know, alumni leadership to teaching to judging competitions, I'd be curious what's the most rewarding part of that engagement.

[17:59]Ben Mayberry: Well, it's recognizing that everything we did has led to some success. For example, when I was on the alumni board, we started an alumni scholarship. And at that time, we charged dues of $30 and we would ask people to donate more than $30 and apply that toward the scholarship. And so, from what I understand, it slowly grew, even after they didn't charge alumni dues anymore, to a scholarship that basically funds one student's tuition or maybe more. And the Jones School Partners has evolved into, you know, a living, breathing, organized organism.

And, you know, we did subtle things to make that happen. For example, you know, when it's time to find a new president, I convinced Jay Collins, who was not a Jones School alum, but was a Rice alum and a Harvard alum, to take over as president. And because of his corporate connections, he was able to bring on a lot of corporate members and dramatically expand that side of the partners.

So, the real reward is in seeing each of these things grow over time. And I taught in the Action Learning Program. But through that, I got to meet a number of different students over a 10-year period and got to follow their careers to a certain extent. And every once in a while, they want to walk up to me in a restaurant or whatever and say, “Hi, you know, that was so great when you were helping us.” So, it's not one thing. It's the fact that the school has been so successful through all the small things that a lot of different people did.

[19:31]Brian Jackson: And one of the big things you still continue to do is the Rice Business Plan Competition. What's the most memorable pitch that you've ever seen at the competition?

[19:41]Ben Mayberry: There have been so many good ones, but a couple of them stand out. One was, very early, there was a team from Arkansas. There were five people, two women and three men, I think. And one of the women's fathers had invented a special tool for, I think it was for taking bolts off that had worn ridges and for stripped nuts.

And they were so effective, I don't remember if they came in first or second. But it was really compelling. This woman was so compassionate about her father's invention. And they gave a good pitch. I mean, these presentations now are finally tuned. They're very professional. They're advised by professionals. They've been able to look at 25 years of historical presentations, what worked and what didn't. But back then, it was just interesting to see people who just spoke from the heart and did a good job.

And then there was a team where they had a battery-operated system to run the air conditioner for an 18-wheeler so they didn't have to idle the engine all night. And they actually brought a prototype and parked it right outside the building so you could walk out and see it. In fact, I suggested that to them. They said, “We've got a prototype out in the parking lot.” I said, “Well, if I were you, I would drive it up here and just park it right outside the door. And they did. And they were one of the six finalists. I can't remember if they won or not. But it's just, you know, common sense suggestions like that to me are, sometimes, good differentiators.

[21:19]Brian Jackson: So, you're now up in the hill country.

[21:23]Ben Mayberry: Well, actually, I'm not. I'm just an hour outside of town. No, I'm near Belleville, which is in a town called Cat Spring. It's only an hour away, for the Hill Country, you have to go all the way to Austin or San Antonio. I had a ranch in the Hill Country for 15 years that we sold and bought a place in Montana for a summer place, and then moved to the country. And I have about 60 acres.

[21:45]Brian Jackson: So, when you had the ranch, you were breeding, what was it, white-tailed deer?

[21:49]Ben Mayberry: That's right. We were one of the early breeders of white-tailed deer. And really, the idea was you breed large bucks and you sell them to other ranches. And you sell those that had the genetics for producing big bucks and you sell it to other ranches. It was, kind of, interesting. One year, we were bottle feeding 30 or 40 fawns that had been born. So, it was a unique experience, to be sure.

[22:15]Brian Jackson: Well, it's patience, right? And there's long-term planning. And then, I mean, you're dealing with real living things, so you're going to have to adapt to forces beyond your control. Looking at that experience, did it impact the way you approach life and business?

[22:30]Ben Mayberry: What's interesting is, so, I'd go to the auctions for deer, for example, and I would expect all of these people who own deer to conduct themselves in the same way you would if you were, you know, operating in a business in Houston. Well, it turns out that that's not the way it worked. Some of the guys would say, “Look, I'll bid 50,000 on your buck and you bid 51,000 on my buck and we'll help drive the price up.” And I found the lack of ethics in the business to be a little bit challenging, unfortunately.

You know, one of the things that they taught you when I went to work at Accenture, which was Arthur Andersen at the time, back in the ’70s, they had a strong emphasis on ethics. So, I had it drilled into my head my first month on the job. And so, I've always had a strong sense of business ethics that's never left. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me anymore, but it still surprises me when I'm doing business with someone who is less than ethical because it just seemed like it's not something you should do as a matter of course in conducting business.

[23:38]Brian Jackson: I agree. It's the backbone of good business, right?

[23:41]Ben Mayberry: That’s right.

[23:41]Brian Jackson: To have solid principles and to do the right thing. And, I mean, I think, in entrepreneurship, your reputation's everything, right? And if you do it one time, it'll follow you to the next.

[23:53]Ben Mayberry: That's exactly right. Even if it's a small thing where no one else will know but you, for me, it would nag me because I'd know I'd done it.

[24:01]Brian Jackson: Yeah, that loud voice in your head saying, “Wait a minute.” So, you know, for me, the highlight of your story is that you're not averse to taking risk. But you do it from a position of looking at, kind of, all of the variables at play and running an analysis based on your past experience. But you can take a risk because you're analyzing and you're thinking through and you're utilizing your past experience. What's the risk that you took that paid off in an unexpected way?

[24:32]Ben Mayberry: Well, when I went to work, decided to leave Accenture to go to work for myself, I didn't have a job. So, I was pretty confident that I could find work as an independent consultant or contractor or whatever. And I did. And that led me to, when I decided to switch gears and we were working on very large projects. And I would typically be the focal point trying to bring all these projects together, what we call the big bang theory. And I wanted to work on PCs instead. So, I went to a friend of mine who I'd actually recruited to go to work at Arthur Andersen's consulting group.

I said, “Pat, I want to get into PCs. I'm not sure how to do it.” And he gave me the name of someone who he had worked with at Arthur Andersen's consulting group who left because they weren't doing PCs. And he was the guy that I co-founded BSG with. So, there’s never one thing that I think makes a difference. It's a series of calculated or maybe not so calculated choices that you make that lead you down a certain path and lead to success. And you make mistakes. You make some investments you shouldn't have. You wish you'd bought more equity in a particular company.

So, there's not one pivot point in my career I can point to, other than deciding to work for myself at some point. Then the decision points along the way that I've made. And, fortunately, I never made a decision that was so devastating that it, you know, shut me down. The most fun job I think I had of all was when we decided to open our other offices at BSG. And I was in charge of opening our remote offices. And I just learned a lot about how you do business around the country. I learned how to negotiate with New Yorkers, people in Atlanta, Dallas, et cetera.

And the most important thing I've found is Houston is the easiest place to do business. You can move here, Brian, from somewhere else, go talk to one of your neighbors in Southgate, and say, “I just moved here.” They’ll say, “Really? What are your interests?” You can say, “Well, I want to play golf and I'm interested in cross stitch.” And one of the guys says, “Oh, my wife is in a cross stitch group. I'm going to introduce you.” The other guy says, “You know what? Let's go play golf on Saturday.” You know, any other city, they'll say, “Oh, that’s nice.” But in Houston, people are generally welcoming to people that come from somewhere else because it's been a melting pot for so long.

[27:04]Brian Jackson: Ben, you're absolutely right. There's a generous spirit in Houston. And I think, yeah, talking with people, telling them what you're doing, what you're interested in, I've had more success personally from doing that, which is actually, kind of, my last question for you is a hot take. I'm curious, you know, I'm a remote worker. A lot of folks are working remote. Sometimes, I find myself sitting here, thinking I need to be out in the world, pressing the flesh, talking at the water cooler, you know, sharing the weekend stories, because that's how you really build that network. What's your opinion? You know, do you think, if you're trying to be an entrepreneur in Houston, you know, that in-person element, getting beyond the phone call, how important is that?

[27:49]Ben Mayberry: Well, I think it's extremely important because people have gotten used to working remotely enough so you can stay connected with your company via Zoom and social media. A coworker that you've never met in person, you feel like you know him because you learn about their family or you meet with them two or three times a week. But it's a closed environment. And you may deal with clients now and then. But if you want to get together with other entrepreneurs and bounce ideas off of them or even build teamwork within your group, I think two things. Number one, within a company, it's important to have functions where you get together occasionally. We used to have quarterly meetings where we'd bring everybody in to a central location. And it's not inexpensive. Once a quarter, we're also bringing the leadership from various places and have a strategy session all together. And certainly, you can do it by Zoom, but there's nothing like getting together, going out and having a few drinks that night or dinner or whatever.

Now, for someone like you who you're in Houston and nobody else is, you need to make a list of people you're going to have lunch with every day. Don't have lunch in your office. Go out three or four times a week and have lunch with somebody that's different and new. Find out who's in charge of the Houston Angel Network. And go meet with them and say, “Look, I'm not in a position yet to join because I don't meet the criteria. But I want to learn what you do. We have a podcast at Rice.” And then, you know, people like me, you meet with outside of the podcast and just pick their brain. You know what was it like at Rice, you know. What should I do in town? And, you know, go to the Ion and get somebody to give you a tour there. Find out what companies are there. And if you don't make it happen, your world will get smaller.

[29:33]Brian Jackson: It does. And it becomes the screen in my office at home.

[29:38]Ben Mayberry: And all the more reason for you to basically say, “Okay, I'm going to go have drinks twice a week with somebody. I'm going to go to lunch, or I'm going to take a two-hour break in the afternoon, and I'm going to do this research tonight.” You know, just do things that get you out of your office for whatever reason. It's just an important thing to do, because it's easy to not do it. It's easy to say, “Well, next week, I'll go have lunch. I've just got too much to do.”

[30:04]Brian Jackson: That's great advice. And it needs to become, like, a part of my job where I think of, okay, 20% is, like, physical engagement with people and start putting it in there and tracking it. My last question to you, if you could sit down with your younger self and you could give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

[30:22]Ben Mayberry: I would say start a contracting company today, because what I found later is, especially in the ’80s, there was a lot of demand for independent contractors. There was great cash flow, easy to do, easy to start. And because I was a CPA and I had a different perspective, I didn't think about it. But the people I know that did were, I mean, they didn't work particularly hard at it. They made lots of money. And they sold them for a good multiple and retired 25 years ago. Other than that…

[30:56]Brian Jackson: Shortcut.

[30:58]Ben Mayberry: Yeah. That's the other thing. You know, when you're 20-something years old, I would say, be fearless. If you want to talk to somebody but you're a little hesitant because of their position in a corporation or their title or whatever, don't be. They're probably perfectly willing to share their experience with you if you just take the time to ask. And if they don't, you have not harmed yourself, in the least.

[31:22]Brian Jackson: I agree. It's a time to be humble. And folks know, when you're 25, you don't know everything. And it's okay to admit that.

[31:29]Ben Mayberry: That's exactly right.

[31:30]Brian Jackson: Ben, I grew up with a dad where we would drive through nice neighborhoods. If he saw the owner walk out the door, he'd pull the car over and say, “Hey, I got to know, what do you do to afford this house?”

[31:41]Ben Mayberry: I've never been that bold.

[31:43]Brian Jackson: I feel like young in your career is the time everyone's a stranger and you want to know their story and you just learn from people.

[31:49]Ben Mayberry: No, that's right. Well, and also, don't forget that people who are my age and retired do have a story to tell. And don't ignore them. There's, people when I read their obituaries now, I think I didn't know that about him. I wish I'd asked.

[32:04]Brian Jackson: Well, we started the call as strangers, but it has been just fantastic to hear your story. Thank you so much, Ben, for being on the podcast. It's been a real pleasure.

[32:12]Ben Mayberry: Oh, sure thing.

[32:15]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please, subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.