[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot Series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

[00:12] Jackie: Honestly, I went to Rice to figure out what I wanted to do when I grow up.

[00:19] Maya: Another daughter, immigrant, entrepreneur, Rice graduate, and survivor, Jackie Pham shares her story of loss, grief, resilience, and her new purpose of dedicating her life to future generations. She talks to us about redirecting her tremendous heartbreak and to creating a new nonprofit, the CEO Foundation, focusing on inspiring the next generation of leaders and the memory of her three beautiful children.

Today on Owl Have You Know, we welcome Jackie Pham, founder of the CEO Foundation, CFO of IMPERATIVE, and an executive MBA of 2021. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Jackie.

[01:06] Jackie: Thank you, Maya. I'm really happy to be here.

[01:10] Maya: So, I will start off by saying that I think most people in the Rice community and in the Houston community and Texas and beyond know a part of your story. You have had an incredibly difficult year and a half since the heartbreaking loss of your three children and your mom. And we will get to that part of the story, but what I would like to start with are the other parts of your story that many don't know about you, that have also shaped and continue to shape who you are.

So, you have an incredible, actually, childhood. You are the daughter of Vietnamese immigrants who fled Vietnam in 1979. And you were born in a refugee camp in Malaysia. And your parents were rescued and found adrift in the South China Sea. How do you feel that that has really shaped you, both personally and professionally?

[02:12] Jackie: 'til this day, I'm still just amazed by the strength and the grit that my parents and others like them, you know, had when it came to overcoming adversity and, honestly, just having a sense of conviction. You know, I don't know how many of us today would leave everything we have, get in a boat—with no GPS, by the way—you know, and hope that you'll end up in some country where you know you don't... won't speak the language and make a new life for yourself, right? And it took a strong sense of conviction for them to make the decision to do that. But then, you know, it was just their strength and grit that moved them forward beyond that, right, and helped them, essentially, build a life for, not only themselves, but for their family here in the United States. So, I think—

[03:12] Maya: And that strength and grit has been instilled in you as well.

[03:16] Jackie: Yeah, I would, I would like to think so. I think I just kind of grew up feeling like, I mean, you just had to try hard at everything you did, right, and work really hard. And eventually, like, you'll achieve what you kind of set out to do, you know. And it's not always easy, but as long as you kind of just keep moving forward and keep powering through, there's not much you can't do. And it's really hard when your, you know, your parents and you're growing up. Behind all of that, you really feel silly about certain things and giving up on anything, you know.

[03:52] Maya: Yes. And your father, basically, the entrepreneurship spirit that you have came from him. He passed it along to you, probably genetically, because he was an entrepreneur. And when he came to this country, he started his own businesses.

[04:08] Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, if you've asked my dad, he would have never wanted his kids to pursue anything entrepreneurial because it was hard work, right, and it involved a lot of risks. And he never really talked about why he took those risks and why he made kind of like the professional decisions for himself that he did. But honestly, he just wanted his kids to go to college and go work for a company and get a paycheck and have a pension, right? I think he... if he knew, you know, I was ever pursuing anything entrepreneurial, the father in him would just feel a lot of angst about, you know, the risk of failure there.

[04:49] Maya: Absolutely, but also, the risk of reward.

[04:53] Jackie: Yeah, absolutely.

[04:54] Maya: That's... And after graduating, you went to Reliant and you were an IT analyst. And then you spent a few years at EY as a senior consultant, advisory and assurance services. And then, KPMG. And was it when you were at KPMG and then Cardtronics as well and you actually worked your way up to being the vice president and head of United States finance? And was it when you were there that you decided to pursue an MBA? What sparked that idea for you?

[05:23] Jackie: I always wanted to get an MBA to check the box. The timing was never right, right? And so, I just kept putting it off and putting it off. And moving up as fast as I did at Cardtronics, you know, required a ton of hours, right, and required a pretty big commitment. And so, there just wasn't room for an MBA. And I felt like, every year, I was kind of making excuses for myself. And having kids, honestly, really changes one's perspective and forces you to kind of dig deep. And at one point, I realized, you know, I was kind of at a loss for words when it came to telling my kids what I did for a living. The concept of payments and financial services is just way too abstract and really lame to kids. And I, and I envied, honestly, the parents who could easily convey the value of their contribution as like police officers or teachers or even like so-and-so's mom who's a director at Target, right? And then there was a classmate's dad who works at Google. Like, these were things like kids just know of, you know, and could relate to.

That realization kind of forced me to re-evaluate and think about the MBA differently than how I thought about it in the past, in terms of checking the box. And so, when I was thinking about doing the MBA at that time, it was really to kind of pursue something different in my career and just to get more out of what I was going to do professionally for the rest of my life. And so, honestly, I went to Rice to figure out what I wanted to do when I grow up.

[07:07] Maya: And a catalyst for your kids.

[07:08] Jackie: Yeah, definitely.

[07:10] Maya: So, you have three—Colette, Edison, and Olivia. Could you tell me about them?

[07:17] Jackie: Yeah. So, I'll start with Olivia. She's my oldest. Olivia was just, I don't know, like, beyond her years. And it was really interesting, the last couple of years kind of seeing her really grow into herself and kind of figuring out how to navigate her social circles. And, you know, you could tell like life was becoming more complex to her than it had been when it was just, you know, the Disney Channel and like Legos, right? And so, I think she was very, very introspective. I think there was just a great level of depth there, in terms of like personality. She's incredibly witty. And with wit comes, you know, a lot of sarcasm at times. And she was never shy about sort of using that sword, if you will. And she was just a really good big sister to her younger siblings, just always very caring of them, even when I knew it was hard on her. Like, it was always very hard on her to go from being an only child to then having a younger brother and a younger sister.

And I think, you know, when I saw that, that sort of stemmed my desire to kind of really foster her and I as like one-on-one relationship. So, we... you know, when she was seven, we started taking one-on-one mother-daughter ski trips. And that was a time when, you know, we would really connect and talk. And she would have my undivided attention. And she loved skiing. And I took up skiing because, you know, she was learning. So, I was going to learn.

Olivia is very like risk averse. Like, she just wants to like take all the green routes, the longest ones, and just enjoy the scenery of the mountain, right? We're very different in that way. I'm like I want to go fast. I want to like, you know, go through the trees a little bit. And she was just, like, no. So, we're just two different types of skiers.

[09:41] Maya: And so... and then you had Edison.

[09:43] Jackie: Yeah.

[09:44] Maya: What's the age difference between Olivia and Edison?

[09:46] Jackie: The age difference there is three and a half years. So, Edison really just gentle, kind kid, very considerate of others. You know, he loved art a lot. I hate to kind of put things in boxes, but he wasn't really your typical boy, you know. He wasn't super rough and wasn't in cars and things like that. He loved like art and architecture and just like, you know, was very visually stimulated. He liked being creative and was... felt a sense of pride in a lot of the stuff that he did. Yeah, just a really, like, gentle, kind kid.

And then, you know, Colette, my youngest, she was just like a ball of energy. And she lit up a... she lights up the room. I mean, people were just incredibly attracted to her. And she just... she was very extroverted and outgoing. And although she was the youngest, she wasn't going to let anyone push her around. And she was sweet and loving. She would say that she loves love. And mine and Colette's relationship was very different than me and Olivia's because Colette was like my last. So, I was kind of like holding onto her being like the baby.

[11:30] Maya: The baby, yeah.

[11:32] Jackie: And she... Yeah. And she loved that, right. Like, she let me have that. She used to write me little love notes, like pretty much every day, and leave them on my desk or throw them over the balcony or leave them like on my nightstand.

[11:51] Maya: And you decided to pursue this executive MBA as a single mom of three children. And that is... I think that that is a Herculean effort. Not only were you a single mom with three children, but you also had a job in order to support yourself and your children. And on top of that, you decided to pursue this executive MBA in 2019 before COVID, right?

[12:23] Jackie: Mm-hmm.

[12:24] Maya: So, you were part of that COVID cohort, as I was. I came a year later. But we both went through that and all of the challenges and adversity of dealing with a global pandemic, working on an executive MBA, working remotely full-time, teaching children, right, because school was at home.

And in February of 2021, there was this freeze that happened in February. You know, there was, there was no power. And there was a tragic fire. And that's how you lost all three of your children and your mom. That is something that... it's immeasurable and deep pain. And you have continued to go on each and every day. And I just want to know how you do that. I guess that my question is, how do you find the strength and the resilience and, you know, just the power to move forward after something like that?

[13:52] Jackie: I... my... I don't... the truth is like I don't feel strong at all. Every day feels like a task. And I don't get out of bed every day. And it is what it is, and I have to be okay with that. I think, mentally, I kind of approached life, if you will, a little differently. You know, I really just set out to get through the day every day. And I kind of focus on, hey, these are things I need to do today. And if I can get these things done, then I'll get through that day, you know.

There's the spiritual side of me. You know, there's no other way for me to explain like how I do that, other than that I know that there are a lot of people praying for me and putting good intentions out in the universe for me. And that's the only way I can kind of explain, you know, my ability to get up, you know, and my ability to kind of move forward. I think a lot of it has... I've taken a lot of time to kind of reflect on grief and loss and all those things aside, like, what does my life look like now?

And I think one thing I've realized is that, just because my kids are no longer here, that doesn't mean I'm no longer a mother to them. And I kind of just refuse to let that identity go, if you will. And the foundation, honestly, is one way that I can still be Olivia, Edison, and Colette's mom, and honor their memory and just, you know, carry on, on their behalf.

I also just refuse to allow like the tragedy to be like the end of their story and what they're remembered by. And so, every day that I can, I'm going to try to like do something good on their behalf, so that like their impact will live on.

[16:45] Maya: So, let's talk about that. Let's talk about how you took tragedy and are transforming it into something remarkable and something that will make your three beautiful children live on. The Rice community really rallied behind you. And I know that you lost everything, including all of your clothes, in that fire. And you mentioned before that the clothes on your back are literally Rice Business clothes that people had given to you. And with the funds raised in honor of Colette, Olivia, and Edison, it was more than half a million dollars. And you're taking those funds and creating a foundation called the CEO Foundation, which is in honor of the initials of their first names—Colette, Edison, and Olivia. And you want to move forward and support initiatives that closely align with your core values of education, arts, health, wellness, environment, and societal impact. So, tell me about the CEO Foundation—how, when you started it, where it is right now, and where you hope it will go in the future.

[18:17] Jackie: We just kind of... we've started it this year. And it's very, very early stages. First of all, I just want to say that I am incredibly grateful to the Rice community and the Houston community and kind of just, honestly, like everyone from across the globe that reached out in one way or another to support me. As you said, like, yeah, as if, you know, losing my kids and my mom wasn't enough, like I was essentially homeless, with no will to do anything. And so, people put clothes on my back and fed me and drove me and even helped me with the logistics of planning all kind of, like, the final arrangements for my kids, and during a time where I felt like, honestly, a zombie.

And so, again, like just so grateful to the Rice community and everybody. And I think the one underlying sort of bright side during kind of all of that was just sort of seeing the spirit of humanity rise above, you know, during such a stressful time, you know, everywhere around the globe, right? Like... but for a minute, we all stopped thinking about our differences and stopped complaining about COVID and just sort of rose above to help a neighbor. And I'm so grateful for that.

In terms of the foundation, you know, I spent some time... a lot of time, actually, just talking to people about, you know, what to do with this money. And I think I had it in my mind that I knew I didn't want to like reinvent the wheel, so to speak, you know, the question of, well, does the world need another, you know, nonprofit organization? You know, nonprofits like have their challenges, and success rates there aren't high. Is this an endeavor I should really do? Is it really... am I really being like responsible with those funds? And I kind of just wanted to do right by everyone's kindness.

But eventually, I think I realized... or it came to the realization that why not continue to double down on things like education, right? And why not promote positive environmental and social impact, especially among kids? Certainly, in my upbringing, you know, I didn't learn enough about that kind of stuff. And so, I think the more we're able to expose kids to some of these things at a younger age, it'll help sort of shape them as tomorrow's, you know, leaders, innovators, and change-makers. And so, that was kind of how the initial idea of the foundation spawned.

And we don't have a ton of things we plan to do on a direct basis. I think what I've been doing is spending a lot of time talking to nonprofits that need more resources. And they are in the fields that they should be in and, you know, doing all the right things for their causes and just simply need help, right. And so, if I... if the CEO Foundation can do anything to help on that front to either promote or bring more awareness to their cause, provide more resources, you know, that ultimately is a net positive impact, right?

So, yeah, it's just been a year of really doing a lot of research and kind of figuring out how we wanted to structure the foundation. But we do kind of have some soft plans underway for the coming... the next couple of years. And so, I look forward to sharing more on that in the coming months. We've kicked off one pilot project that we're doing with the St. Laurence Catholic School in Sugar Land. And that's the school where my kids went to school. They have a really old library. And I have this idea that I got so much value in going to the library when I was a kid. And it wasn't just to get a book and read a book, but it was the space and just having a place to go to. And I think, with the things like... things kids have today is nothing like it was when we were kids, right? But it doesn't mean some of the things that we had when we were kids can't be valuable today. And I think the library is one of those. And so, the project at St. Laurence is about kind of modernizing the library, getting kids back into a library, creating collaborative spaces for them to do group projects or just to simply do homework together and to be away from screens, you know, or just a quiet place to read. I think like spaces can do a lot for people in terms of just like engendering more thought-provoking types of activities.

And so, the idea is to update the library, modernize it. And then, hopefully, we'll kind of monitor that and see... go through an observation period and kind of see like if some of these theories I have are teasing out. But, you know, in five to 10 years, I would... if it's successful, like, I would love to be able to renovate libraries for other schools and provide grants to do that, right, so that they don't have to draw from the local municipal resources and whatnot. And if at the end of the day, like a kid... an idea is spawn in a CEO Library and a kid comes out and does something with that and changes the world, that will be the measure of our mission.

[24:33] Maya: So, will it be called the CEO Library?

[24:34] Jackie: Yes, it will be called the CEO Win Library.

[24:37] Maya: That's awesome. I love everything about that.

[24:40] Jackie: Thank you.

[24:41] Maya: And so, part of coming through this executive MBA program or any MBA program, you go in thinking that it's going to be one way, right? And then it's completely different. And in the midst of all that, you've also pivoted. You know, you had goals of where you wanted your career to go. So, can you talk to me a bit about, you know, people that are going through the program or considering an MBA and your experience at Rice and going through that and having to pivot, the lessons that you have learned.

[25:23] Jackie: Yeah. I think it's important to just have a reality check with your, with yourself and with your families and your support system and your teammates. I think, you know, yeah, as you said before, like, outwardly looking in, like I look at myself and I think that I was crazy, you know. Like, as you said, like single mom, three kids, you know, full-time job, like, oh, sure, like what made me think I could do that? But I think it was... And it was the advice of other graduates, right, was just like prepare your support systems and get their buy-in.

And so, I think the MBA experience was as much mine as it was my kids, because I needed them to be flexible about certain things when it came to every other weekend when I had to be in class. And they were genuinely excited for me. And that kind of fueled me as well, right, like I just didn't want to let them down. And I just... you know, I also just wanted to show them that, like, you can do anything, as long as you try and you work hard, right? And I didn't want to be beholden to my circumstances.

My mom was incredibly supportive. I think grandmothers or grandparents are like unsung heroes because I wouldn't have been able to do it without her helping me with after school carpool, right, and helping me with simple things like grocery shopping. It's simple, but it takes time. And it's absolutely necessary because you have to feed everybody. But her just taking on these little tasks for me helped. And then having conversations with my own team, and honestly, being vulnerable. I don't know what kind of like the composition of your team was. But for me, I was the only female on my team.

[27:18] Maya: Me, too. Me, too.

[27:19] Jackie: Yeah. And I felt like I was really daunting. But I knew I had to do it, just to have this initial conversation with like, hey, guys, like these are my circumstances. I'm going to need flexibility from you. And my promise to my kids was I'm as busy as I ever am. I will always, always be home for dinner. And I... and that was important. And so, it was like we needed to schedule our group calls for after dinner, things like that. But I think the guys on my team are like my brothers for life because they were just really good men and really good teammates to have. And we all pulled for each other and carried the extra weight when we could. And they certainly did that for me in the end. But yeah, to your point, I think that, yeah, the advice I would have for future students or people about to just pursue this is just get that buy-in from all your support systems and just get ready to take the plunge.

[28:24] Maya: Well, and that's also something that I think is important to highlight about Rice and the MBA program, is that, yes, you come to build a network, you come to meet new people, to share ideas, to be challenged, all of these things that check all of those boxes. But I think that the best part, really, is that you build these lasting bonds and friendships for the rest of your life. And you go through highs and lows and difficult challenges and all of these things in these two years that you have together. And it's like nothing else. And, you know, what I have noticed and you probably have as well is that this program, it permeates every part of you. And, you know, you drive down the road and you just don't see the world the same way after being a part of it. And it's really incredible.

[29:25] Jackie: Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. And I think, you know, a lot of times, people say like, oh, the Rice network... and like network just feels like it doesn't do it justice, right?

[29:40] Maya: It feels cold.

[29:41] Jackie: I think the spirit of community behind Rice is like no other. And I've never been much of like a school spirit kind of person. But, like I'm really, really proud of being an owl. And I get really excited when I talk to anybody, like, who went to Rice or considering on going to Rice. And as you said, it's a life-changing experience that you don't anticipate at this stage in life, either. I mean the last time I honestly really made friends was probably like in my very early 20s, right. But to make 60 new friends, real friends, not my network expanded by 60, right, like to make 60 new real friends in your early 40s is incredible.

[30:31] Maya: Well, I also want to talk about the new day job that you have taken on as the CFO of a new organization. So, tell me about that. That's super exciting. I mean, you're running a brand-new nonprofit, and then you're starting something new as well. I mean, man, you're a real underachiever, Jackie, I have to say.

[30:54] Jackie: Yeah. So, I'm the CFO of a company called IMPERATIVE. And IMPERATIVE is a relatively new startup as well. They started this past February, a group of really established professionals and experts in the voluntary carbon market space. Essentially, they're a multi-jurisdictional carbon offset project development company. It's a global company. And again, we're staying in the impact space. You know, I think there's a lot of fulfillment for me, professionally, being able to just stand behind what the company I work for does. And they're part of this bigger, greater mission to use the earth's resources more responsibly.

[31:42] Maya: So, there's a lot. There's a lot for you to look forward to, which is super exciting, you know, that... now that we can put some things behind us with the changing landscape of, you know, with COVID and everything else. It's great to see things not as hazy, I guess. Things were a bit hazy, I feel like. I don't know if you felt the same way. But, you know, the last couple of years have been a bit tumultuous. And now, it seems that things are clearing up, so to speak.

[32:12] Jackie: Yeah. I think that's a good way of putting it. I think there's a couple more paths, I guess, in front of me now, right. And so, it's just a matter of pursuing them and seeing where it all takes me.

[32:25] Maya: I'm so excited to have had an opportunity to talk to you today.

[32:29] Jackie: Thank you for the opportunity to talk about what I'm... you know, what I'm doing and to talk about my kids, you know. I think people ask, you know, "how you're doing" all the time. And for me, any day I get to say... I have the chance to say my kids' names out loud and to talk about who they are or share things about them beyond, you know, the tragedy that took place is a good day for me. So, thank you, Maya, for giving me that opportunity. And for the listeners, if you haven't already, visit us at ceofoundation.org. Follow us on Instagram. The handle is @ceoforgood. We've got a lot of big things in store. And I can't wait to start rolling a lot of that out and showing the world the spirit of Colette, Edison, and Olivia.

[33:31] Maya: And I can't wait, too, because it's going to be, it's going to be amazing, just like you are and just like your beautiful children are. And you will always be a mom to them. When you're a mom, you're a mom for life.

[33:42] Jackie: Yeah, thank you.

[33:43] Maya: Absolutely. Thank you for being here today.

[33:48] Outro: Thank you for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. We'd like to continue our support for Jackie and pay tribute to her beautiful children—Colette, Edison, and Olivia. If you would like to join us, please visit ceofoundation.org and follow the foundation on social media to keep up-to-date on Jackie's important work. You can find links to the foundation's Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn accounts in our show notes.