[00:00] Maya: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys, the stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

Our guest today on Owl Have You Know is a 2022 Executive MBA, who soaked up every last drop of the Rice Business experience. Keri Sprung gives 100% to every opportunity and challenge she is given, and Rice Business is no different. 

She shares her flight path from pursuing a biology major as an undergrad to being a vice president of marketing at a biotech firm, to also being a co-founder of two medical device companies. She tells us about her time at Pfizer, a short stint in the housing market, and what led her back to her passion for medicine and innovation.

Currently the vice president for education and the director of the Women's Center at the Texas Heart Institute, she shares what ignited her desire to come to Rice Business for an MBA and the profound impact that has had on her life and goals for the future.

Keri, welcome to Owl Have You Know. We're so thrilled to have you here today.

[01:10] Keri: Oh, thank you, Maya. It's my pleasure. And it's really an honor to be invited.

[01:14] Maya: Well, full disclosure before we begin. We were in the same graduating class of 2022. We were the COVID cohort. And so, I just want everybody to know that this interview is going to be a little bit different than all the others, just because we have such a strong friendship. And it's like I'm talking to my sister. So, if anybody's thinking about Rice Business, this relationship, in and of itself, is reason to choose Rice over any other program.

[01:46] Keri: Absolutely. It's, one of the things I wanted to mention today is, you know, you join the program to learn business and to brush up your skills, but, you know, you definitely are going to meet some of your best friends that are going to be lifelong friends. And so, get ready for that.

[02:01] Maya: It's the best part. So, Keri, you're the vice president for education and the director of the Women's Center at the Texas Heart Institute, which was founded by world-renowned heart surgeon, Dr. Denton Cooley, in 1962. You really are the poster child of Rice Business. You have more than two and a half decades of experience. You've been an entrepreneur. You've been the VP of marketing. You've literally created the entire communications program at the Texas Heart Institute.

And there's so much to get through and there's so much I want to talk to you about, but let's start at the beginning. Let's start at UT. We both went to UT. You, however, were a biology major. So, tell me what brought you to UT and what sparked the love for biology.

[02:50] Keri: Oh, gosh. I think, my entire life, I loved math and science. And so, biology was really by accident. I started out pre-nursing. There was a nursing shortage, as there always is, back then. And everyone said, “You should go into nursing. You love medicine. You love health.” And so, I started out as pre-nursing.

The programs were really just growing at the time. And then, when it came to actually getting into the thick of the coursework, there really weren't spots. And so, I said, “Well, this is a lot of science and math. I might as well go pre-med.” And I liked biology, so that's what I stuck with. And that's what I ended up graduating with.

[03:28] Maya: And so, what did you do after graduation?

[03:30] Keri: Oh, good question. So, I think I never intended, really, to go into medicine. So, I realized I was, I was not going to become a doctor. I had a lot of fun in college and I ended up working during college. And I really embraced that. And I'm a workaholic, as I am today. So, I worked a couple jobs. One of them was a clinical-focused job in the orthodontic area, and I had some great bosses. And I also had a fun job at the Cado.

And then, after that, I was just really used to the pace of working. And so, I was really fortunate to be hired by Pfizer Pharmaceuticals at a time when Pfizer was Company of the Year in Forbes and Fortune had named them one of the most admired pharmaceutical companies. And it was very exciting. I worked for a division where every drug that I was representing in marketing was the first in its class. And I was the rookie of the year. I just really embraced it because all the biology that I learned was very useful. And I was able to just walk out there and talk to doctors. I was very social. And I guess I learned that at UT. I was really good at networking and had a lot of fun just walking out and representing really great drugs and top in their class and talking about medicine all day long.

[04:46] Maya: So, how many years were you at Pfizer?

[04:48] Keri: I was at Pfizer about six years. And I started out in the Northwest Houston area and ended up in the Texas Medical Center. So, that's where my journey with the Texas Medical Center started. And I was in charge of all the Baylor College of Medicine accounts — so, any hospital that was affiliated with Baylor College of Medicine. And I still, to this day, work with Baylor College of Medicine. So, it was very exciting. I work with Methodist and St. Luke's and Texas Children's, the VA and Harris County Hospital District, which is now Harris Health. It was a lot of fun. And some of the doctors that I met there, I work for today and work with us at the Texas Heart Institute.

So, that was a lot of fun. And then, I decided to pivot. I realized that I embraced pivoting before pivoting was a trend post-COVID. So, I decided to pivot and take my one exit from medicine and go, try to do some work in the real estate industry. And I really didn't know what I was doing. It was an outside sales job. And pretty quickly, a very wise mortgage broker looked at me and said, “You really should go back to medicine. This is not for you.” She let me work for her for a few years, and I learned a lot about mortgage banking, realized I needed to get back to medicine.

So, I started to look for a device job, which is a very natural progression when you're in pharmaceutical sales. You think, “Okay, what's next? I want to go work with devices.”

I ended up finding a really fun startup in Austin, Texas. Getting back to Austin, which I missed, I worked there for a few years. It was in a different area of medicine. It was in orthopedics. And most of what I had sold were medications for cardiovascular disease. So, I kept thinking, “I've got to get back to the heart area.”

But I really enjoyed it. It was a startup investor relations/marketing job. I was the vice president for marketing. I helped them set up trade shows and hire a sales team and work with our investors and work with the different doctors that were using the products that they were distributing.

And then, I pivoted again and decided to work with a graduate from Kellogg, newly minted MBA out of Kellogg and a newly minted PhD out of UT. And we started our own distributorship. We basically had a service model, where we went around and built out different markets across Texas. And we represented one device. We negotiated a non-exclusive license to market this point-of-care device where we worked in all the operating rooms.

And so, we would throw on scrubs, get in our car, throw our devices in the back of our trunk. And we would just park it in different cities for weeks on end and build out the markets and hire staff. It was fast and furious. I was pulling over on the side of the road, putting invoices in the computer and sending them over, you know, to my partners to, you know, make sure that we were keeping all the finances straight.

And I really realized I was crazy. You know what? We were all crazy. We were very young. And what are we doing? Luckily, somebody in the group had an MBA that was helpful.

But I think then is when I started to realize it might be fun to understand business from a different… through a different lens. I was very strong in science. I was very strong with relationship management. But I was missing some details there. And I knew it then. I actually divested my interest to that company and had some money in my pocket and decided to volunteer for a few years with a nonprofit in Austin, working on advocating for stem cell research and responsible policy. It was, kind of, a role where I was just helping the founder and share this nonprofit to educate the community about science and medicine, something I do today.

I had a lot of fun, but I realized I needed to make some money. You know, my cashflow was not there and that was not going to work forever. You know, it was time.

[08:37] Maya: Yeah, that's important.

[08:39] Keri: Got to go back to work. I needed to be gainfully employed. So, I started to look around for a job. The Texas Heart Institute invited me to come back and work for them. They said, “You know, all the things that you're doing out here for this nonprofit, we would like you to move back to Houston and work for us.” And, you know, that didn't take very long to say yes. That was a great opportunity. Dr. James T. Willerson, he was the president of the Texas Heart Institute at the time, just a visionary man, really my mentor. And we are here today still at the Texas Heart Institute.

[09:10] Maya: So, I was going to ask you about, you know, your mentors throughout your life. So, Dr. Willerson was one of them. Tell me about that relationship that you had with him, because obviously, they sought you out. So, tell me about that relationship and what it was like to work with him.

[09:27] Keri: Oh, gosh. It was a lot of fun. The very first day, I remember sitting down and he put me in this tiny office and said, “You know, we don't really have a role for you here quite yet, but just, dig in, take my lead. And there's a lot to do. We're going to recruit this phenomenal scientist and build this new department called the department of regenerative medicine. And, we'll take it one day at a time.”

He brought me into every meeting. There was this one meeting at the American Heart Association annual conference. And he said, “Just follow me around.” And I said, “Are you sure I should be here?” And I realized I was sitting in a room with all of the editors of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology, and it was almost like a roast type of dinner. And he just introduced me as, you know, his new assistant, Keri from the Texas for Stem Cell Research, and “She's now working for us, and she's going to help us build our regenerative medicine program.”

But he was very kind. He introduced me to the board members. He was patient. He gave me assignments and projects that had a lot of meat. They were challenging.

About four months in, he looked at me and he said, “You are going to now work with the Center for Women's Heart and Vascular Health. This is one of our research programs. And you're going to work closely with Dr. Stephanie Coulter. The individual who had started that department was going to retire.”

And I was mortified. I said, “Oh, my gosh, what am I supposed to do?” And he said, “You'll also be the director of constituent relations.” And I literally had to go look up, like, what does the director of constituent relations do? And one of my roles was to run the annual appeal, which is a development function. And I did not know anything.

[11:03] Maya: What did it say when you looked that up?

[11:06] Keri: It's extremely broad. It's a very broad job description, you know. It's a lot of external relations. It's building relationships. There's special projects involved. And so, I think I even spelled it wrong on LinkedIn. I mean, it was terrible.

So, I actually turned to Rice. This is where the Rice journey started. I went to take courses at Rice, the Glasscock School for nonprofit leadership. I took a fund development course. I took an annual appeal course. I took a nonprofit finance certificate program class, and that was a practicum. And I remember getting in there, and you had to find a mentor. I went to my CFO, Fred Zeidman. He's a wonderful man, a great person to work with. And he said, “Of course, I'll be your mentor for this.”

And once I got into day one, I realized, I looked at the core syllabus and it was a lot more than I thought. I had to clear my schedule. It was the summertime. And I just canceled everything that I had planned for the weekends, because this was going to take more time for me than I expected.

But it was a great project and it was a great experience. And I think, then, I realized I could go back to school one day. I didn't know if I knew how to study, because it had been a lot of years at this point since I had been out of my undergrad.

[12:20] Maya: But you've learned how to do so many things.

[12:23] Keri: Yeah, I've learned how to do so many things along the way. And so, that's when it hit me. But I waited five years till I applied to the MBA program, because I was just worried I wouldn't get in. And life got in the way. I was busy. I kept moving up in different roles at THI, taking on more projects. But every time I was promoted, I almost never lost that other hat.

And so, I was gathering, I was becoming a hat rack, and I had all these jobs. And I needed to learn how to work on our business and not necessarily in the business and lead teams and transfer some of this knowledge, because all of a sudden, you know, I was starting to become one of the older individuals in the room, not necessarily the young intern. That's when it hit me. I needed to connect some dots, and I needed to go back and take all that experience and make sense of it.

[13:14] Maya: So, tell me about your application process to Rice.

[13:17] Keri: Oh, my gosh. I did not tell anybody except my father and my mother and my husband. You know, it was sometime in the fall, I wrote some letters.

[13:27] Maya: The fall of 2019, right, the fall of 2019?

[13:30] Keri: Well, in 2019, yes, before, you know, before COVID. None of us knew COVID was coming. And I just spent a couple weekends. I spoke with a few individuals who I've always considered really close friends and mentors. One of them is in Austin, and she'd gone through the executive MBA at UT. Of course, she was really trying to talk me into coming back to UT. And I said, “I really love my husband and I love my friends and I love Houston, and I don't think I want to travel back and forth.” And thank goodness, because you really need your support system around you during this program. I think that would've been difficult. Would've been great to be back at my undergrad, but I really wanted to entrench in Houston because I plan on staying in Houston.

So, I thought, you know, Rice is really the best choice. I'd already spent so much time at Rice. We collaborate with Rice at the Texas Heart Institute. Since about 2007, ‘08, or ‘09, I had been working with the Baker Institute, with Kirstin Matthews on projects related to stem cell research. And so, I was comfortable there. And I just really respected the faculty members who I had heard lecture.

It seemed like all the signs kept pointing to Rice. I kept meeting people who went to Rice. Or their kids went to Rice, or I would listen to a lecture and, “Oh, wow, that's a Rice graduate.” So, it just seemed like it was… it seemed like the signs were there. And so, I submitted it. And it was around the holidays.

[14:52] Maya: And the stars were aligning for you.

[14:54] Keri: Stars were aligned. And then, I just closed my eyes and didn't think about it. And then, fast-forward to January, February, it's always busy at the Texas Heart Institute at work, and I didn't think much about it. And then, in March, things were starting to get very scary with COVID.

I think Rice announced that they were going to shut down. And we were, the whole medical center was trying to figure out what was going to happen next. And we were locking down and preparing, and what are we going to do?

And I remember getting a phone call from Rice saying, “We're trying to get in touch with you to come to this opening session. You were accepted.” And I remember pulling over on the side of the road. And I just thought, “Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, I forgot that I even submitted this application because we've been so busy trying to figure out how to handle the potential global pandemic.” I said, “Of course, I want to go.” And that was it.

[15:44] Maya: So, I remember the first time that I met you, there was a Zoom call of the women that were going to be in our cohort. And we were all in these little teeny tiny little boxes. We all introduced ourselves. And I'll never forget, I saw you in one of those boxes and you had just had this beaming smile because that's who you are, and this, like, dynamic personality.

And after that Zoom call, you called me. And you said, “I want to introduce myself. My name is Keri Sprung. And I'm so excited and looking forward to being in this program with you.” And not only did you call me, but you called every single person in our cohort and introduced yourself and started building and cultivating those friendships and those relationships. And there's so many phenomenal things about you as a human being, but to really just give 110% of yourself to this program is really unique. And it says a lot about who you are. And it’s also why you became our Class representative of our cohort.

And you also were awarded the Mike Wright Leadership Award at graduation, which is the top leadership award given to anybody at Rice University. And it just speaks volumes about the kind of person that you are.

So, let's back up to the program, then we'll talk about the leadership award.

[17:12] Keri: Well, thank you. You're making me blush. It's very kind. Let me just be very clear. I was scared. You know, this was a very big commitment for me. And I wasn't sure if I would fit in. I had waited a long time to go back to school. And so, I was happy to meet everyone, but I thought, you know, I have to get over this fear. Do I really belong here? Look at all these very capable individuals. I mean, every time I met anyone in our cohort, I was just in awe. Everyone was so accomplished, very talented, very well-spoken, super successful in their career. I mean, it was impressive.

And so, I thought, I don't know. I'm just going to get over my fear. I'm going to call and get to know, because, when it gets down to it, we're all humans. And I found that, I think, everybody was afraid and everybody was excited and nervous at the same time. So, I guess that helped. I don't know. But it was, it was a lot of fun, and I just thought, “You know, if you're going to do this, you should just go all in. Put yourself out there. Make some friends or not, you know.”

[18:18] Maya: No, I think everybody's your friend.

[18:20] Keri: I think, too, that we, at that time, you know, we were shut down. We were locked up. I had gone back to work immediately because somebody had to go back to work and open the bills. And so, a few of us were going over to the institute. But I think we were all hungry for human connection at the time. And I think it was a time that somebody needed to break the ice and reach out. And I've just always been one to pick up the phone.

I have to tell you, I do not love Zoom. So, this was a very difficult two years for me to be locked into a camera. But I really do like to just pick up the phone and call people instead of just all the back-and-forth emails and Zooming around. So, I guess that's why.

[19:01] Maya: Tell me about your leadership journey, from really the beginning where you are right now.

[19:06] Keri: One of the shining parts of the Rice Program Executive Program is the leadership component, the leadership track. And I didn't even realize, going in, how committed Rice was to making sure this leadership and personal growth component was interlaced into, really, the entire, the entire journey of the 22 months.

And so, I grew as a leader, not just from the material we were learning, but I think the interactions with our cohort and the interactions with our deans and our professors. For me, I work, I work in a medical community, and most of the leaders I'm around are doctors and scientists. And so, it was really helpful for me to step out of the healthcare setting and to be around…

Everybody was a leader, going into this program, already, but working on the different areas of their leadership, and it was really nice to learn from one another, and then really to have that opportunity use the program as like a learning laboratory and to try new things that, maybe, I was afraid to try at the institute, and to take on responsibilities, like being the Class co-chair. You know, I was working alongside of a co-chair, and we had to learn how to be co-leaders. And that was really a fun experience for me.

You know, Luis Rodriguez was fantastic. We were very different in our leadership styles. Every problem that would come up, we would workshop those together and we would talk about it. And we would decide, you know, should we act, should we not act? Should we sit on this for 24 hours? Who should we call?

So, it really was this side learning project going on in parallel to the coursework. And I encourage anybody who goes into the Rice program to really look around and to take these opportunities, because those activities really, really were where I was actually able to take the fundamentals and take what we were learning and apply it in real time.

We were assigned a coach during the program. And I actually, still to this day, meet with that coach. And so, I found the value of coaching. I didn't really appreciate the value of coaching until this program. I've always sought out mentors and I've always been super fortunate to have amazing bosses, but mentorship is different. And I think I started to realize the value of that and the value of actually being a mentor, because you learn a lot when you're mentoring as well.

[21:36] Maya: Right, and you're a mentor.

[21:38] Keri: I am, yeah. I started mentoring, in 2013, Breakthrough Houston students and EMERGE scholars. And I was scared going into that, too. Am I going to be able to train them? Am I going to be able to help them? Am I going to add any value to their learning journey? But that was really the formal mentoring. And I'm going to continue that today, but I, for a period there, stopped finding mentors and I realized that that is really important.

I actually asked one of our professors, Kathleen Clark, who was the brand strategy professor at Rice, if she would accept my invitation to mentor me afterwards. And so, we meet quarterly and talk about brand topics. And it's been really rewarding.

[22:17] Maya: So, we did work together in quite a few of the classes that we had,

[22:21] Keri: We did.

[22:22] Maya: Because you could then branch off. Your second year, you can branch off and then, kind of, pick your own team. And that's, kind of, interesting as well, because everybody's just, kind of, sitting there looking at each other and you're so comfortable with the people that you've already worked with the year before.

Then, in your second year, you're like, “But I know the way that that person works, and now you want me to, like, you know, step out of my comfort zone and find somebody else to work? I mean, I don't know if I want to do that.”

And so, it, that's, I think that's certainly by design. And I think that a lot of us were a bit uncomfortable that second year of “You go find your own team.” And then, you know, it was, it was, I just remembered the big, the big eyes in the classroom I was trying to figure out. It was like, “Well, I mean, I know that person, but I've never worked with them before.” But I mean, that's life.

[23:09] Keri: That's right.

[23:10] Maya: You know, you have to be flexible and you have to learn how to work with different kinds of people. And even at the beginning, you know, they put you together with your team and you're working with people you've known for two seconds, you know, and you have to rely on them and trust them and depend on them and everything else. And then, they mix it all up and they throw it all up in the air that second year, I think, very deliberately, to teach you, you know, how to come out of that little comfort zone that you've got.

[23:38] Keri: Yeah, let's talk about the volume of work.

[23:42] Maya: Yes.

[23:43] Keri: They say that you're drinking from a fire hose, and that's true. But I think that's intentional.

[23:47] Maya: Yes.

[23:48] Keri: So that you do have to trust your teammate, because you have to divide some things up. You have to trust that your group's going to get components of these assignments completed. You know, I think that's very intentional. There's just no way you can't work together. But that's the reality of business, you're not doing this alone once you get to this level. You're not going to be a good leader if you can't motivate a team and work with different teams with different disciplines.

I was on a team with a lot of engineers and a doctor. It was really a lot of fun because they definitely had different strengths than I had. And I was worried I wouldn't bring something to the table with these three brilliant individuals. But really, all of our skills complemented one another.

So, it was, it was really a lot of fun. As we grew through the program together, we were very comfortable, we were very efficient, and we knew one another, how one another could contribute. But we also flipped our roles. We tried not to let one person just lean on their core strength all the time.

[24:48] Maya: Yeah. I mean, that's what you want to do. I mean, that's human nature. It's like, “I know how to do communications. How about if I do this, and then you do the spreadsheets because I'm not touching those with a 10-foot pole?”

[24:57] Keri: Yeah. But this is where you're supposed to try new things.

[25:00] Maya: Right. And fail.

[25:01] Keri: Yeah.

[25:02] Maya: I mean, not necessarily in the class, but just to, you know, to recognize that, “Oh, gosh, I really don't know how this program works.” And then, you can lean on your teammate or somebody in your cohort. Like, “Hey.” I mean, I can't tell you how many times I'm like, “Hey, can you meet me for coffee and explain Excel to me because I still don't understand it?”

[25:22] Keri: They've done a great job cultivating the curriculum where everybody's almost on an even playing field, even though there's different strengths here and there. That goes away, as soon as you walk in there. And we're all challenged, but in the best way.

It was exhilarating, exhausting, all of the above. But I remember feeling like, “Oh, wow, I'm going to miss this.” I felt like, “Wow, I want to graduate because this is exhausting, but I know I'm going to miss it the day we graduate.” And I do, you know. And I realized I should just enjoy every single moment because this is something that no one can take away from us. And it's for us, you know.

So, these 16-hour weekends, it wasn't a chore, “I have to go to class.” I mean, it was a privilege to go to class and just sit there for 16 hours and realize that you're doing something that's so helpful for you, your family, your company, your community. And it was really the best 22 months. It was just —

[26:15] Maya: The world.

[26:16] Keri: … priceless. It's hard to describe to somebody until they do it. And once you're through it, it's just a sense of accomplishment. And it seems like everything after graduation is easier.

[26:27] Maya: And you miss it.

[26:28] Keri: I miss it. But don't you feel like… I knew going in, I didn't have the tools I needed to make these hard decisions that were coming my way at work. And I was very worried. Big decisions and big topics. But now, I mean, nothing fazes me. And I feel like I'm able to draw on all these lessons. And I can't really pinpoint one lesson. It's more the body of the material. And they've really chosen great cases.

And so, I find that there's not a day that doesn't go by where I have applied something that I learned to my entire life, to how I volunteer, how I am working with my family, how I'm managing my personal life, how my husband and I interact, how my friends and I interact. And the decisions I make moment to moment, I'm definitely able to make those with much more confidence. So, I can't say enough good things.

[27:22] Maya: Well, yeah, it permeates.

[27:24] Keri: It does.

[27:25] Maya: It permeates your entire being. That's a big, bold statement, but it's the truth. It really does. And —

[27:32] Keri: It changes you.

[27:33] Maya: It changes you. It does. And I also just want to mention that the Mike Wright Leadership Award, that's given…we vote. The class votes on who should be awarded this honor. And we all voted for… well, I'm pretty sure most of us voted for you.

[27:51] Keri: Well, thank you.

[27:53] Maya: So, tell me what that felt like to receive that from your cohort.

[27:58] Keri: It was an incredible honor. It was probably the highest honor to be voted by your peers, especially considering I was wondering if I would even fit into this program and if I had anything to contribute.

But I really wanted to get into the program, meet new people outside of medicine, inside of medicine, and just find out if I had the capability to work across industries and connect with people that were not in healthcare and even keep up with some of these brilliant minds. And so, I think I was honored, humbled, shocked. What am I going to say on this podium that anybody in this audience doesn't already know? And so, my approach was, “We did this together, honestly. And this was, we should all be very proud. And we just made it through a global pandemic and earned a degree and we are extremely close because of it. So, all challenges, moving forward, should be surmountable.”

[28:54] Maya: What's next for you? What are you planning on doing in the next few years, going forward?

[29:00] Keri: That's a great question. You know, you get out of the program and you think you're going to have so much time, but you very quickly fill it.

[29:08] Maya: Yeah, there's no time.

[29:09] Keri: So, I was wanting to make sure that I didn't just graduate and go back to my old ways. And so, I've been very mindful of that. I didn't expect to do this, but I started to engage with a startup nonprofit.

One of the things I wanted to do was work with startups because I have so much… I have a 360-degree view of innovation in medicine. And I thought, well, a natural thing will be for me to advise startups and be able to share what I know, having started startups myself or worked in academic medicine and at a research institute.

But I found myself drawn to the community. I've always loved engaging the community. Part of my role as the director of the Center for Women's Heart and Vascular Health is to go out into the community and educate everyone about their risk for heart disease. And there was a startup called Fit Houston, and I agreed to be an executive advisor. And we've had a lot of fun. And the very first thing that the founder asked me was, “I need to build a board. And I need to learn about how we should build this. And do you have anybody who might be interested in health? And so, I started to introduce her to people like you and members of my cohort who I knew embraced health in general.”

And she was looking for a treasurer. I suggested one of our cohort members, Yewande Ogunye, who is amazing and talented and —

[30:31] Maya: A brilliant accountant.

[30:32] Keri: Brilliant accountant, and had been a controller at one of her companies and had worked with a startup. And so, that was her first appointment to her board. And I recently joined the board from the executive advisory committee.

But we engaged Rice. We were invited to write an article in the Kinder Institute for Urban Research Urban Edge blog on physical activity is the magic bullet for health. And we've actually received some funding from the Rice University Center for Civic Leadership. And we're going to be talking with a group of students in the RiceApps Club. I think I'm saying that right. There's a club at Rice, and they were looking for nonprofits to work with and build an app for them. So, that's our next project.

So, that's been a lot of fun and super rewarding. I've been able to draw on lessons from strategy, lessons from digital marketing, brand strategy, a little bit of finance. We've written some grants. We're applying for a grant at the Impact100. That's been rewarding.

So, I didn't expect that. You know, there's a couple startups, some intellectual property that I think is very interesting, that once this starts to be commercialized, I'd like to be a part of those companies. So, I think that's what's next.

Really, I'm applying as much as I can at the Texas Heart Institute, where I work now. There's a lot of operations challenges that we're overcoming, you know. And healthcare operations is almost the Achilles heel.

I brought in a healthcare operations lab project from Rice last spring. It was a course that I took, and I learned so much. I got to work with MD Anderson, which was really exciting, on a practicum type project, capstone type project.

And so, after graduation, I approached Ian Wedgwood, who's the professor for this course, and said, “I would love to bring in some students for projects.”

So, I anticipate we'll do that again in the spring. It was really rewarding and a lot of fun. And it was, it was really nice to be reconnected back to a couple of the Executive MBAs who were just one year below us and keep in touch with them. So, I think that's what's next for the foreseeable few months.

[32:35] Maya: I mean, that's it? I'm just kidding.

[32:37] Keri: Well…

[32:38] Maya: That's it? That's a lot.

[32:41] Keri: Well, I should turn this interview back on you. One thing we did during this program that we didn't talk about was you and I immediately partnered, created our own series.

[32:51] Maya: We did.

[32:52] Keri: And how you were really helpful for me because I was straddling and juggling work and MBA and I needed to, still, during a pandemic, continue to elevate the profile of my institution.

And so, we decided to launch our own series called The Heartbeat. I remember bringing you into the institute, pulling you around, and just throwing a camera on you and throwing you into the studio.

[33:19] Maya: And I remember saying, “No, no, no. I don't do that anymore. No, I'm not… I can't do that anymore.” And you're like, “Yeah, here's a microphone, Maya.”

[33:28] Keri: You were amazing. And so, I had you… I think we had, we did 15 episodes.

[33:32] Maya: It was, it was a highlight.

[33:34] Keri: What was that like, the first time I interviewed you?

[33:37] Maya: I mean, it was, yes. You did. You interviewed me. And now, it's like I'm interviewing you, which is full circle. But yeah, it was one of those things that I had never even contemplated doing. And I mean, you definitely, you pushed me into what was a comfort zone a long time ago that I had, sort of, let go of. I can't tell you how grateful I am for you for doing that for me.

And I think that's one of the things about this program, is that we lift each other up. There's so many instances, not just between you and I, but between so many different people from so many different cohorts. And the history of the Rice business program, we're there for each other in the great times and in the hard times. And, you know, if somebody's looking for a new position, you know, we've got this WhatsApp group where everybody can say, “Hey, I'm looking for this,” or, “I need to fill this,” or, “Does any… I've got this kid. My kid needs an internship and everything else.”

And it's just that community that really binds for life. And that is something that is so incredibly special and meaningful and really priceless and worth every penny of admission.

[34:49] Keri: 100%.

[34:51] Maya: Any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners?

[34:55] Keri: Oh, gosh. I think it's really important to thank your family and your friends and your company for the grace that they give you during this program. So, you know, I don't think I thank everybody enough in the team that I manage at the office. You know, they also helped me… they gave me the space to be able to do this and to miss a few deadlines.

And I think it's really important to understand how much support you need going into this program, but to thank those that helped you. And to my entire cohort and to you, I mean, this experience wouldn't be what it was without the people. And so, it really is all about the people and the culture. And I think we built our own in a couple years, and we loved it.

[35:42] Maya: We did. We did. And I am so grateful for your time. And I can't wait to see what you do next. And who knows? Maybe you'll be the host of Owl Have You Know one day. That would be great.

[35:55] Keri: You never know. You never know.

[35:57] Maya: You never know.

[35:58] Keri: Thanks, Maya. This has been an honor. Thank you so much for a fun interview.

[36:05] Maya: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

[00:13] Maya: Our guest today is Wendy Fong, Executive MBA of 2013, who has over 20 years of experience in culture change, leadership development, team effectiveness and capability building, and also operations. So, Wendy, thank you so much for joining us on Owl Have You Know today.

[00:29] Wendy: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:31] Maya: Absolutely. So, this has, sort of, been a pivot for you. You spent quite a bit of time in the corporate world and then decided to become your own boss and to become an entrepreneur and to launch your own firm called Chief Gigs, which, basically, it's leadership and team development and coaching and, really, building a dream team, right?

[00:54] Wendy: Yes.

[00:54] Maya: So, I guess my first question is, tell me about your background and, and how you really decided to, to make that change. Was that something that, you know, was spurred by the Rice Executive MBA? Is that what really drove you to the program, or was it something else?

[01:12] Wendy: It's funny because I actually started my business because I made a huge mistake, right? I spent 20 years in hospital operations. One of my last jobs in healthcare was associate vice president of operations for the neuroscience department at Memorial Hermann. And I had just such an amazing team of physicians that I supported and worked with. I built new offices, brought different capabilities to different hospitals.

And so, it was really super exciting. But then I decided that I wanted to make a bigger impact. And so, I quit my really already exciting job with great impact to work for a health tech startup. And I went from having my immediate team of about 200 people to about 10 people. And I realized, "Oh, shoot, I made a mistake." Like, the impact that I wanted wasn't the millions of people who would be using this product or the patients that we serve.

The impact that I really enjoyed, working at such a large organization, was that I could touch so many employees, all of the mentoring, all of the transfers that could happen because, you know, we had spaces for them to move up and, and so forth. Actually, after having been in operations for so long, I learned that my true passion was people instead of the operations, but it was just all so intertwined when you have a big job that you don't really realize.

And so, after that, I just tried to make my way to helping people as much as I could, which means working with companies. And so, I do feel like I'm doing the best work of my life now. I work with companies to help them figure out how to unleash the talents of their people. And sometimes, it means that this person doesn't belong or, or they belong in a different role, but it's that puzzle and helping them figure that out.

[03:34] Maya: So, maybe it wasn't a mistake, maybe it was just part of your path to really recognize what you're passionate about, right?

[03:43] Wendy: Yes, absolutely.

[03:44] Maya: So, you got your Executive MBA in 2013. Was that when you launched Chief Gigs, or was that later?

[03:52] Wendy: No, no. I launched Chief Gigs later. So, I had applied a long time prior to that, but I just never went. And then...

[04:02] Maya: Why didn't you go?

[04:04] Wendy: Actually, I had gone through a divorce around that time or separated, and that's actually what pushed me to start my MBA because I felt like I needed to just be able to lean on myself even more. And having the Rice MBA was definitely that security, right? And so, that's what got me to go back to school. And I loved it, and I love all of my classmates. And we just had our 10-year reunion.

[04:35] Maya: I was going to say you're coming on your 10-year. Yeah.

[04:37] Wendy: Yes. We just had our 10-year reunion. I actually just brought on a partner to my business, and she was my classmate.

[04:46] Maya: Ecosystem really makes a difference, doesn't it?

[04:48] Wendy: Yes.

[04:49] Maya: So, tell me about your time at Rice. Like, I mean, it was a decade ago. So, so-

[04:54] Wendy: It was.

[04:54] Maya: And you've, you've still remained very much interconnected with the university even 10 years later, which is something that is also important to highlight about the faithfulness and the loyalty of Rice alumni. And that's something that, if people are considering coming to Rice, that's something that, that they need to also recognize, that people once... I mean, you graduate but you don't ever really leave.

[05:17] Wendy: No. And it was so amazing because I went to undergrad at a big school, University of Georgia, right? And when people used to talk about, like, alumni network, I didn't understand what that was because there wasn't really that cohesiveness. But when I went to Rice, it just felt so different. I was in one of the biggest EMBA classes.

[05:42] Maya: I was going to ask you, how many, how many people were in your cohort?

[05:44] Wendy: So, I think we started close to 100, and I think we ended with maybe, like, 89. But I can say, like, the network is so amazing that I can say if I were to need a job today, I can reach out to my classmates, and I will have a job. They've got your back. If you haven't been through it, it's hard to really understand, like, what do you mean, right?

What does that mean? But, you know, we have, especially in the Executive program, we have classmates who are now CEOs of large organizations, business owners, you name it. And so, it's just an amazing network, which I didn't get until I went to Rice. Yeah.

[06:28] Maya: It's magic, huh?

[06:29] Wendy: It is. I love it.

[06:31] Maya: So, so, I want to, sort of, turn a little bit to entrepreneurship and your very first experience with that. So, can you tell me about that and how Chief Gigs really came to pass? Because obviously, you recognized that you weren't where you wanted to be and, and you wanted to pivot. So, tell me, first of all, how did you come up with the name and how did you build this from scratch?

[06:55] Wendy: It's funny because at the time when I realized, okay, working at a health tech startup wasn't for me, I tried to actually get jobs within HR. But for some reason, HR companies don't like to hire into HR unless you have an HR background. But I'm like, "Okay, but I've run a company, but I can't, you know, be-

[07:18] Maya: Right.

[07:18] Wendy: ...be your HR person." So, one of my classmates actually, he had led HR for an international oil and gas company. So, this is going back to that Rice network. He put me in touch with, I think, like, seven or eight people that he had either worked with or helped throughout his career and said, "You need to talk to these people to understand what their needs are, tell them who you are and you, you need to find your path. But, you know, I don't think that it's of an individual contributor in an HR department."

[07:51] Maya: Right.

[07:52] Wendy: And so, I did my homework. You know, I got really great advice that, "Hey, you know what? You don't need to be in HR to make that, sort of, impact. You can be a vendor, you can, you know, you can be adjacent to HR." And that's when I started really looking into what services that, you know, would intersect, right? And so, I went to work for an employee benefits firm, which services HR companies.

And I used to do the M&A for Memorial Hermann and this, you know, financial services firm. You know, we bought a lot of, a lot of roll-up in that industry. They really wanted my expertise of integrating acquisitions. And so, I got there, I learned all about, kind of, being on the vendor side of HR. And then I also was introduced to the Predictive Index at that company.

[08:47] Maya: Could you tell us a little bit about what the Predictive Index is?

[08:50] Wendy: It's like magic. So, the output is similar to any behavioral assessment that you would take, you know, whether it's DiSC or Myers-Briggs or, or whatnot, right? It's only two questions and the average time to take it is five minutes. And that's what I really, really love about it.

[09:11] Maya: So, what are some of the questions?

[09:14] Wendy: Yeah. So, there's only two questions.

[09:17] Maya: Right?

[09:18] Wendy: It's basically who you are, who you think you are as a person, and then how you feel you're expected to be at work. So, just those two questions, they've got you figured out. Most of my clients, when they first are introduced to it, they're like, "Is somebody spying on me? How do they know this?" But the best part about it is that all of the reports are in layman's terms.

Although I'm a business coach, I don't want you to need me, I want you to be able to read the report and take action from it without having to pay me extra because that's not where I like to live either. I want to talk to you about big strategy and growing and things like that. And so, really, I love it just because it's a model that anybody can use. Yeah.

[10:10] Maya: Absolutely. So, so, some of your customers are nonprofits, startups, and investment groups. Those are very, very different kinds of teams with very different kinds of leadership. What are the most important qualities that great teams have? What's something that often goes overlooked when it comes to optimizing team performance that you have found?

[10:34] Wendy: Interestingly enough, people's biases are so strong even though they don't know it. People tend to hire others who are like them. And so, sometimes I found entire teams all centered around, one quadrant. So, everything is you, you can plot people based on your answers into the world of work. And everybody is in the same quadrant with the same strength, but also the same, you know-

[11:04] Maya: Weaknesses. Yeah.

[11:04] Wendy: ...caution areas, right? And so, I think the most important thing is for people to be self-aware so they can say, "Okay, I know this other person might not be the person when I interviewed them, we just are BFFs right away and we hit it off. And maybe the conversation was a little awkward, but the reason that is, is because they are the opposite for me." And...

[11:31] Maya: Different perspectives.

[11:32] Wendy: Exactly. And, and I need that, and for, for leaders to understand, well, if you need that, then you have to be able to work with different people with different work styles. They might be introverted. They might need time to think it through instead of, you know, wanting to talk it through with you. They might need a lot more detail than you are willing to give. But they're going to be able to do their job better if you're willing to invest the time into that relationship.

[12:01] Maya: Well, and that's what it is, right? You know, psychologically, you do tend to gravitate towards people that, kind of, get you and you get them, but it's, you have to have patience and you have to have, you know, forethought of, of recognizing that not every one of those puzzle pieces needs to be a corner piece.

[12:19] Wendy: Yes. Absolutely.

[12:21] Maya: So, what are some of the important questions people should ask themselves to reflect on their professional performance and their own opportunities for growth?

[12:30] Wendy: So, I think one of the most important questions is how, how do others see me? Like how do I come across to others?

[12:40] Maya: And how do you get the answer to that? Because that's a really big, bold question because, I mean, your friends, are they really going to tell you? Or...

[12:48] Wendy: Well, so, the great part of the Predictive Index is that it tells you. Let's say because you are someone who is very independent decision-maker, you might seem overly aggressive, right, to your colleagues or to your direct report.

And so, what's helpful is then as the coach, you can say, "Have you heard this from your team members? Do they readily come to you with new ideas or with issues when they come across them? Or do you, kind of, hear about them around, you know, around the way?" Right? So, I think it really helps because leaders identify with their profile, and so then they're like, "Oh, well, if these are my strengths and these are the common cautions with these strengths, it could be true."

[13:39] Maya: And then you have to have that heart-to-heart conversation of, "You may think you're this way, but you aren't?"

[13:49] Wendy: Yes.

[13:50] Maya: It's a lot of self-reflection.

[13:52] Wendy: It is.

[13:53] Maya: So, what has been your biggest success and your biggest challenge with Chief Gigs?

[13:58] Wendy: It's so fun.

[14:01] Maya: It is. It's fun, but it's a lot of work to be your own boss for sure.

[14:04] Wendy: Yes, because you have to make yourself do work and then you're like, "Wait, why am I making myself... "

[14:09] Maya: Right?

[14:10] Wendy: Because I love what I do, it really comes through in everyday life. So, I've had the privilege of not having to sell. I actually have never gotten a client through anything other than a referral.

[14:28] Maya: That's the best kind. The word of mouth.

[14:29] Wendy: It is.

[14:30] Maya: Yeah.

[14:30] Wendy: And I'm so lucky. So, now that I have a partner, we're talking about expanding and she's like, "So, how do you sell?" I'm like, "I don't. I don't know. I don't know how we are going to do this because I haven't done it yet."

[14:43] Maya: So, how long have you had your partner?

[14:45] Wendy: So, she joined last year but we made it official at the beginning of this year.

[14:51] Maya: Oh, congratulations.

[14:52] Wendy: Thank you.

[14:53] Maya: So, when, when should an organization, kind of, take a step back and say, "Hey, maybe we need some, some coaching, maybe we need some optimization in terms of our leadership development, maybe we could be a lot more profitable and, and a lot more successful," so, what kind of questions do people need to start thinking about?

[15:14] Wendy: Yeah, so, I would say right now, everybody needs help, no kidding, just because the pandemic has just thrown everyone for a loop. And even if you think that people are operating well, they're probably dealing with things that they haven't processed yet in the last three years, right? And so, the uncertainty, the economy, the, you know, do I have a job? Do I not have a job? Am I going to get laid off? Like, all of this wears on people. And so, I would say before you start seeing-

[15:58] Maya: The cracks.

[15:59] Wendy: ...performance issues... Right. Before you start seeing the cracks is when you should really be engaging and building. Unfortunately, the issue with, I think, a lot of organizations is that they don't invest enough money into training and development. They don't invest enough money into HR departments. It's the entire company's, you know, issue, right? It shouldn't just be handled by HR. And a lot of organizations, HR doesn't even have a seat at the table.

[16:28] Maya: Yeah.

[16:28] Wendy: So, they're not able to say, "Hey, we need to engage our employees instead of just keep doing more and more work." But, like, instead of, preventing all of this, the HR department then has to basically just fill open spots.

[16:48] Maya: And so, you're also involved with the Valhalla Investment Group at Rice.

[16:52] Wendy: Yes.

[16:52] Maya: Tell me about the Valhalla Investment Group, and how you became involved, and how did you get your start in investing in startups?

[17:01] Wendy: Valhalla Investment Group was started in 2012. Apparently, I don't remember this, but I was at one of the first meetings. They invited the 2013 EMBAs to attend and that's how I was introduced to angel investment. I just didn't even know how people got money for their startups prior to that, right?

[17:22] Maya: Yeah.

[17:22] Wendy: And so, it was really fun. We initially invested in funds or in real estate projects, you know, things that were more, kind of, steady. But when I started working for the startup, then I got exposed to all of these other, you know, startups, and I, I, I, kind of, brought them in to pitch. And so, I guess, like, we just became the stable people who were organizing the events and everything. And we changed the model of leadership.

We decided, "Okay, so, people who are currently in school, they have a lot more time and a lot more connection. And this is a really, really great way to expose current students in this type of investing, in the whole startup ecosystem as the managing directors." And so, we shifted the people who were leading it to become board members. And then each year, a new managing director or directors are appointed and then they roll on to be board members.

[18:27] Maya: Yes, I know. That happened in my class as well. There was an application process that was fairly rigorous with lots of math that people needed to do in order to be considered. So, I guess it's coming on its 11th year, VIG. It's called VIG, right? Valhalla-

[18:42] Wendy: Yes, yes.

[18:43] Maya: ...Investment Group. For short-

[18:44] Wendy: Mm-hmm.

[18:44] Maya: ...it's VIG. And so tell me how VIG has been doing.

[18:46] Wendy: So, it's been going well. We have regular meetings, probably about six to eight of them a year. And actually, the investments aren't just startups. Some of them really are more traditional funds or real estate. But based on your own investing profile, you can really get involved in different things. And so, over the years, and the number might be a little off, but we have invested in over $8 million over the years. It might be a little bit more, but yeah.

[19:23] Maya: Going back to, like, a personal level. So, you are very philanthropic. Not only are you involved with a lot of other nonprofits here in town, but you're also a part of United Against Human Trafficking.

[19:34] Wendy: So, I quit my job and I was like, I am not doing, you know, what I want to do, what I love to do. So, I took some time off. And there's been another EMBA who totally agrees with me that gap years for adults is such a great thing because it really sets you on a better path, right? So, during this gap year is when I did all my research on human resources, I also thought about how I had always wanted to volunteer when I was younger, but I never found the time to.

And why not fill my time now with the causes that I'm interested in and then fill work back in, right? Because that's, that's truly how I want to live. So, I thought about what world issues I really care about, and it's human trafficking. So, I researched the organizations in Houston and found that United Against Human Trafficking is not only its own nonprofit serving the people, but they run a coalition of all of the Houston-based anti-trafficking organizations.

And they are able to bring all sorts of different organizations together, whether they're faith-based or not, to unify them in this one cause. And so, I really love that kind of community-building piece. And they've actually expanded into Lake Charles, and they've built a coalition in Lake Charles as well.

[21:10] Maya: That's fantastic. So, I've also read that one of your, like, goals is to move to Cambodia and start a nonprofit. So, tell me about that. What kind of a nonprofit? Would it be based on, on human trafficking as well?

[21:24] Wendy: Yes. And so, the reason I even really knew about it or learned about it was when I was traveling in Cambodia in 2010, I, kind of, saw firsthand how open it is. And I started doing research. I realized, "Oh, wow. It's not just in developing countries in Asia or, or, somewhere else. It's actually right here in Houston."

And so, that's what led me to being a board member at United Against Human Trafficking. But I do want to help on a more global level. And in fact, one of my friends, who's also an MBA, is doing a world listening tour right now of anti-human trafficking organizations, so that maybe we can figure out what we can do.

[22:19] Maya: It's a huge problem, you know. And, within Houston, it's, kind of, known as one of the sex trafficking, unfortunately, capitals of the world just because you've got I-10 and you've also got I-35, right? You know, very close by.

[22:30] Wendy: Right.

[22:31] Maya: And, and that's, you know, from Canada to Mexico and from one coast to the other. It's a serious problem that I think a lot of nonprofits are working with different legislatures to really squash out, to make it a thing of the past.

[22:44] Wendy: Yeah. And, you know, there's just so much within the space that you could work in. For example, financial literacy. And you're like, "Well, what do you, what do you mean?" Like, there are so many survivors who need just the basic education, and if you are a financial planner, could you help provide classes for people who are trying to learn and get their life back?

Understanding demand reduction because I also do think that a lot of people don't understand that a lot of the people that they're interacting with are there against their will, right? And so, understanding that this isn't a service that you should and can buy, like, that is helpful.

[23:37] Maya: Right.

[23:37] Wendy: Yeah.

[23:38] Maya: Well, so, so, let's also talk about something that you have overcome in the last, I guess, six months. So, in October of 2022, you discovered that you have breast cancer. So, tell me about that jolting experience, and how you've gone through that, and the treatment, and how you're doing now.

[24:02] Wendy: Yeah, so, I would say, one, get your annual mammogram. That's actually how I found, which is unfortunately a small percentage of the case. A lot of women just don't get their mammograms. But I got my mammogram and then they said, "Oh, you just need extra testing," right? And so, I was like, "Okay, so, I need a biopsy."

I did the biopsy, and it came back benign. But they said, "Well, we'll just send you to a surgeon anyway." And so, when I met with the surgeon, she said, "Well, you know, it came back benign, but it can become cancerous. And so, you know, our recommendation is that, you know, you remove it, but there's not really any timeline."

And this is maybe in May. So, I'm like, "Oh, great, I'm going to schedule this after the summer, after all of my trips and, you know, vacations." Right? So, I scheduled it for October. And what I thought was just a regular lumpectomy, which is removing the lump, she called me to say that it actually was cancerous but that the biopsy had missed it.

[25:08] Maya: Wow.

[25:09] Wendy: So, I was like...

[25:11] Maya: It probably knocked the breath out of you.

[25:13] Wendy: It did. I was so shocked because that just was... it had been there this whole time, this whole time that I could have taken care of it, and I just, like, didn't know or didn't understand. So, we had to do a second surgery to get the rest of it out now that we understood what it was and go through radiation.

But what I learned through this process was everybody wants to offer you food when you are going through illness. And you're not hungry. No. People are like, "Can I bring you dinner? Can I bring you food?" You're already so overwhelmed-

[26:00] Maya: Oh, gosh.

[26:01] Wendy: ... and you're just like, "I don't need food."

[26:04] Maya: Right.

[26:05] Wendy: You know. What I needed was... Oh, my gosh. All of these referrals take so long, and then when you call a doctor's office, and I, I was in healthcare, so, I know this, you can't make an appointment. You can't talk to the person that you need to talk to because you call them and then somebody takes a message and then they call you back. But you're in the bathroom at that time for, you know, every single time, right?

And so, it became so stressful just making doctor's appointments. And that's what I needed help with. That's what my husband did for me because he didn't have a job that... You know, he, he, he, he works for himself as well, and he didn't, he didn't go to meetings. He was more of a process person. And so, he's like, "Yeah, I can make phone calls if that's what you need." I'm like, "Yes."

And that was actually, this experience has become now a situational leadership course that I'm teaching with my partner because if we can actually give our employees what they need instead of all this other stuff, so, not food, but phone calls. So, if we can give our employees training, information, whatever, right? If we can understand that, then how much better would they be at their jobs, knowing that their needs are met?

[27:33] Maya: And knowing how to ask what those needs are in a-

[27:36] Wendy: Yes.

[27:36] Maya: ...tactful and a meaningful way, right?

[27:39] Wendy: Yes, yes. Absolutely.

[27:42] Maya: I think that's probably what people do is they're just like, "Well, I can, I mean, I can start a meal train for you," or, "I can do the..." But instead of saying, "You know, just be honest with me. What do you need? I, you know, I will do what you need, but you have to tell me."

It might be a good idea for a venture launch of doing this for people that are going through these sorts of health issues that, you know, you, you can basically say, "I don't need food. I need somebody to do this, this, and this." And then folks can sign up for that. But I think that just, sort of, the, the fallback of-

[28:17] Wendy: Right.

[28:17] Maya: "...Okay, I can, I can feed them. That, that I can do." Now, that actually just taught me that I need to ask very specific questions of what is it that you need.

[28:28] Wendy: Yeah. Well, so, one of the best gifts that I got was... So, a friend of mine, and she's so intuitive, but she didn't even tell me she was coming over. She dropped off a gift card in the mailbox and just texted me later to say, "Hey, I dropped off something in your mailbox because I do think that it's great to just not have to-

[28:50] Maya: See people?

[28:51] Wendy: ...be expected to see people." Right? And it was a gift card to the Blow Dry Bar, you know, the hair styling-

[28:58] Maya: Nice. Uh-huh.

[29:00] Wendy: ...place. And I was like, "Why do I need this?" But apparently, she knew I needed it because after I got the second surgery, I actually got an infection in my arm and I couldn't, like, do my hair. I couldn't really lift it. And so, I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is genius."

[29:19] Maya: Yes.

[29:20] Wendy: But how could she have known, you know? And, and to just drop it off with no, like, expectation of having to talk or whatnot. Like, that was really helpful. Yeah.

[29:33] Maya: Those are the best kind of friends, the ones that are intuitive and they just know. And every, every one of us, you know, have those two or three treasured people that, that just get it. Those are the fruits of life, right?

[29:45] Wendy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

[29:45] Maya: The sweetest of the fruits. So, what's next for you? Tell me about your long-term goals. What are you planning on doing in the next few years? I know you want to grow Chief Gigs more, but what's, what's next?

[29:57] Wendy: I do. And I actually have been talking to my partner about doing a new startup on employee engagement based on needs. So, instead of getting swag that you just end up putting in a drawer, what if you told, you know, a platform what you needed?

[30:16] Maya: Nice.

[30:16] Wendy: And the company can pay for a... Let's say my goal is to buy a house in three years. You know, you don't have to take any sort of tests or anything, but if the company knows that that's your goal, "Hey, we can pay for a financial advisor to walk you through your finances." Right? As opposed to, "Hey, we're just going to give you a blanket with our logo on it." You know, you can't buy a house with it, but you can keep warm, right?

[30:47] Maya: I get it.

[30:47] Wendy: Thank you, but that's not really what I'm, what I'm hoping for.

[30:51] Maya: That's awesome, Wendy. That's so exciting.

[30:54] Wendy: Thank you.

[30:55] Maya: Well, you know, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. I'm thrilled about all of these wonderful things that are happening for you. I would love to stay in touch and catch up with you, you know-

[31:05] Wendy: Absolutely.

[31:05] Maya: ...going forward. We really appreciate your time and, and for carving some time out for us. It's been wonderful.

[31:12] Wendy: Thank you. I'm so excited. And you've done such a great job with all the podcasts. I'm just, yeah, excited to be on.

[31:19] Maya: Well, I'm excited to have guests like you. That's the best part. Thanks so much.

[31:23] Wendy: Thank you.

[31:26] Outro: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe then leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Scott Gale, and Maya Pomroy.