[00:00] Intro: Today on Owl Have You Know:

[00:44] Christine: In his six years as dean, there have been no shortage of challenges—from Hurricane Harvey to a pandemic and a deep freeze. Rice Business Dean Peter Rodriguez not only led the school through them, but has even managed to foster some major growth milestones along the way. Today, he talks about the future of the business school, who are his mentors, and a new appointment that will give him a front-row seat to what's happening in the economy.

We are so pleased to have Dean Peter Rodriguez from Rice Business with us today on Owl Have You Know. Thank you so much for joining us.

[01:18] Peter: It is my pleasure, Christine. Thank you for having me. I feel so special.

[01:21] Christine: Well, we're so glad to have you. We know that the past couple of years have been just unprecedented at Rice Business. As you're wrapping up the second year, we've seen COVID, the ups and downs. Just how are things going as you're wrapping up this year and getting ready for another graduation?

[01:37] Peter: They're going really well. I think, in many ways, we're seeing a return to normalcy. And that means both trying to prevent COVID from being a problem, but also trying to live with it. And that's got our optimism in a place where it hasn't been for a couple of years. I think two years of being in a short-term thinking mindset has been difficult—for many people, taxing. We've tried, adapted, learned, tried, adapted, learned. And now, I think what we'd like to do is to be able to take some of that mind share and put it back on the longer-term strategies and the relationships that we'd like to work harder on. So, I think everybody's feeling quite good.

The other side is the job market is looking good for most of our graduates. And that makes them feel really comforted, too, that all of this work and all the struggle will pay off in a way that they hoped when they first joined the program. So, it's a good time. And we're in a good position.

[02:32] Christine: I was finishing up the executive program at the end of 2020. And so, I think, for me, one of the things that really impressed me was how quickly the school was able to pivot to online learning. And I forget what the number was of how many courses were moved remotely. And that just amazed me. It had to be something that the school obviously had never done before. But at the same time, it proved to me just the readiness of Rice Business to take on whatever may come their way.

[03:00] Peter: Thank you for saying that. It was an extraordinarily difficult time two years ago. You may recall that, in February of '20, we had one of the first COVID cases in Houston on the Rice campus. We had a person in one of our buildings, and they'd been exposed and diagnosed. And so, within about two weeks, it became clear that we would have to change very quickly. And the president sent out a message. And I think, within 48 hours in early March, late February, maybe, we had our first online courses up. It was essential to do. It was strange. I think everybody thought, is this going to last? Is this an overreaction? We immediately begin to think about the end of the year. And if you can remember all the challenges and thinking, well, gee, are we going to graduate in person? Are we going to get to take those final global field experience trips? And from the professor's side, do I really have to teach this way? It was strange, but we worked together. We pulled a lot of late nights and long weekends and got it done.

And so, interestingly, I think, as soon as we had a handle on the problem and had clarity about how long we'd be in that space, people rallied, resources were put to the test quickly, but we got there. By the end of the semester, I think we had a reasonably smooth end. Then, we had an online graduation type that was a nice bridge, I think, to the future when we could do it in person. But it was a tough time. I'm glad it's in the past.

[04:24] Christine: You've been dean since 2016. And I want to talk about some of the highlights at the business school in the time that you've been there—doubling enrollment, increasing faculty by 30%, introducing the first online degree at Rice, renovating McNair Hall, which I think some of that still may be going on, along with getting through Harvey and COVID. That's a lot in six years. Is there one thing in particular that really sticks out in your mind, maybe, that you're the most proud of?

[04:54] Peter: That's a good question and a hard one to answer. You listed a lot of those. I'm most proud of the resilience of the organization to have managed all those adaptations in that period of time. I think, when you look at it, Harvey was a great test. And when I thought we passed really well, it evidenced how tight-knit the community was.

Then, when we started to think about our possibilities, I've always said Rice had these great strategic foundations for our business school. We thought we could grow. We could grow the faculty, grow national significance. But it meant, of course, really stressing the organization, asking people to do a lot, launch new programs, address new markets, manage it all while delivering excellence, trying to do lots of things, build a bigger class, a more diverse class, a more successful class, and then growing the faculty, which is the foundation upon which most everything is built. That resilience and the ability to keep coming back and keep doing more was really a result of a great teamwork, a lot of good leadership, support at the university, support from the alums. That's what I'm proudest of.

And then the freeze was an interesting little twist. We had little events like that that were big events. But in this grand scheme of things, it felt like, oh, that's not so bad. It was just one minor catastrophe. COVID was longer and has been more exhausting. But that's what gives me confidence. The ability of our teams to be resilient and continue to grow means our future is bright. I'm happy about that.

[06:21] Christine: Definitely another one that everyone endured. And I think one of the interesting things about leading through these, the students are actually getting some real-time learning because that's what you're teaching in business school, is the ability to react to unplanned unanticipated events and pivot. And how do you pass that on to students, like, this is how we handle it, and this is how you can learn from it?

[06:43] Peter: That's a good question. I think, sometimes, when looking at education or thinking about business school, people think, "Well, I'm going to get the formula to solve every problem," or there's a script, and somewhere I can go and find out, well, this is what you do in the event X, Y or Z happens. It doesn't work that way. In large part, what you're training to do is to be prepared for things that you weren't prepared for, to be ready for things that were unforeseeable, and to have that ability to think clearly, mobilize a team, stick true to a mission or some objectives, and hold to some values while you do the very best. And it's a challenge to do.

I like to say you have to learn to be comfortable when you're uncomfortable. And what that means is, in the midst of a crisis like that, 

And so, in those moments, you're exactly right. We usually tell students, "We're working through this. We're making some decisions now. And we're in the process of trying to make the best decisions going forward, given the time we have, given the urgency of the situation." And that's a challenge. So, in COVID, there was a good example. We had COVID, which was really, let's say, disequilibrating, some nicer word than a source of panic or tough or exhausting. But by the summer, we also had George Floyd being buried in Houston. And we had this great need to get together to talk about the meaning and the significance of this, what was happening in the country. But we were all remote.

Well, it felt like a bit of a gut punch. You're like, well, geez, here we are, almost crippled from our ability to do what we normally do well, which is to get together and talk about things. And now, we can't quite do that. But you pivot again. And everybody was in that situation. And in many ways, every organization in the world had to figure out what we did. And that was a great moment for students to recognize, too, "That's what I'm training for. That's what I'm being prepared for." And that's what this education is about.

[09:04] Christine: In talking about leadership, I know you've talked about, maybe, your style, your personality trait being more of an introvert. Can you talk a little bit about, maybe, the challenges of that? Maybe, how you found it to be a benefit? And I know Professor Brent Smith would be particularly interested in this as we covered this in his coursework.

[09:23] Peter: Sure. Well, I'll give it a shot. I've taken all the same Myers-Briggs test and the OCEAN test like everyone else. And they usually come out INTJ or on the border between I and E. I think that the misunderstanding about introversion is that it's about—they think it's about, well, you don't like being around people or you don't like being in crowds or you're shy. I've never had that fear. I never worried about speaking in front of large audiences or talking about what I like. And I enjoy all of our social gatherings a lot.

My introversion is really just that I recharge when I'm by myself and studying or thinking about issues. That's when I feel the most reawakened and alive. And that's how I get myself ready for things. I like to say, when I speak, I do my very best to not use any notes, which is terrifying. But I've found that, if I'm prepared enough in advance, I feel better about what I do in that moment. But I have to go away by myself a little bit and think, well, what do I really think about that subject? What do I really want to say?

And that's rejuvenating for me. I like that part of what I do. And I like reading. And it doesn't take a lot of time, but I have to have a little time to get back my sense of understanding of the world and the process. It doesn't take that long, but I like that part. And I think being a student, if you've ever been a student long enough, you have to spend a lot of time studying in the library by yourself and poring over subjects. And that suited me really well. It's still part of who I am.

[10:52] Christine: I want to talk about the words "attentive," "responsive" and "kind," and how these core values come about to you and how they're really central to Rice Business.

[11:05] Peter: Sure. I remember coming up with that around the time of Harvey. And it was a part of this contemplation about, what's distinctive about us? Who are we? What do we really hold to? And when I got here, I had lots of discussions with people in the school as alums, on the staff, on the faculty. And they love the place. And they would frequently describe the benefits of Rice as "We're really small. The classes are small. People get to know each other." And I like that. It's certainly true. And people do recall that. They'll say, "I felt known. I felt seen, etc." But I didn't think that it quite captured all the ways that we want it to. How do we treat each other? What does it mean?

There are downsides to small, too, which we hear from some prospective students. They'd say, "Well, maybe, our network is small," or, "Maybe, we just haven't been as successful. After all, Harvard is huge in the MBA space, etc." So, really spending more time in the organization, I could tell what the benefits of small were, or what the benefits of the attitudes were. And it was that we had the luxury of being able to understand the student experience better than anyone else. We could really focus on them. We could work in groups that would speak to each other often enough, that work together enough, that they can understand the process, well, this is what's happening in real time.

And then we could respond to it. We understood what was happening better than anyone else. And we could respond to that quickly and say, "Here's why," or "Here's what. And here's what we're going to do about this." It doesn't always mean you say yes, but it does mean you're responsive, because that's how you demonstrate value to someone, that they're respected, that they matter to you.

And then there was the kindness. And that, really, is what came out during Harvey, which was that people just cared so deeply about each other, in part because of the attentiveness and responsiveness, that they could be really empathetic and generous with the resources we have. And Rice is fortunate to have great resources.

So, those came together. There was no pun intended about ark being something you float upon in a flood. But ARK was a way to say we have this in our community. Let's talk about it. Let's hold it as these three cherished values and way that we treat each other. And we're going to be attentive, responsive and kind at everything we do with every stakeholder that we have. And so, it wasn't an invention of something we had to aspire to necessarily. It was an encapsulation of who we were in a way to focus that. So, I was—I can't remember when exactly it came to me, but when it finally came out, I thought those are the ones, ARK. And three is easy. Everybody can remember three.

[13:45] Christine: And you've had the opportunity to actually be in the classroom, teaching a few courses on leadership. I know Brené Brown has actually been one of your guest speakers. How important is it to bring those outside thought leaders, experts in their field, into the classroom and let students meet them firsthand? And also, your experience in that classroom as well?

[14:08] Peter: It was fantastic and critically important. And we need to do it again. One of the biggest advantages I noticed about Rice was, in the middle of this large city, a hugely commercial city, but city with lots of talent around it. I remember I came early in 2016. And I met so many business leaders running around the Rice external track or coming through the campus. That never happened to me before. I was at a great school at the University of Virginia. And I've been to lots of schools around the country. And they're not in the middle of a city that way. And so, they don't have the level of talent around, the level of leadership. So, bringing them from the city into Rice is a huge advantage.

And there's nothing quite like it. I think, oftentimes, we think, well, this is just a leader talking about war stories and how valuable is that. That sometimes happens. But almost never when it's set up in the right way. Those leaders come in, and they make an impression upon you. They get your attention. They get your focus. And they can tell you about the lived experiences of doing what it is we're trained to do. And that's the compliment to what happens academically in the classroom. Professors, and being one, I'm really fond of them, and I like what we do. But there's a limit to how much we can contribute. Those leaders can contribute something essential that almost no one else can. And I think the students get enormous value about it.

Brené coming in, a local star, someone who thought critically about leadership, who had a voice or had a vision, made a huge impact on our students. But we also had Jim Hackett and Jason Few and civic leaders around the city come in and talk about how they managed and how they dealt with large organizations, whether they were not-for-profits or publicly traded. And that's extremely valuable. And I know students loved it. And likely so, I do too.

[15:58] Christine: I can speak for myself. I loved the guest speakers. And just getting some insight from different industries and getting into the mind of that leader and seeing where they're coming from. And that brings me to my next question, in looking over your bio, you've described yourself as having a tinkerer's mindset. Maybe, you would have been an engineer if you wouldn't have chosen economics. What is it, a tinkerer's mindset? Can you tell us about that?

[16:24] Peter: I think it's someone who wants to solve problems, who feels like, "I think that I can do something about that." And so, a tinkerer is also someone willing to experiment at the margin and try things. I like that. My dad was a chemist, much more rooted in science than I am, but always brought that to me. And so, he was always working on projects, building things, whether they were electronics or things from his lab. He had a lab. It was really cool. So, I just developed that idea that you see a problem and then you experiment around it and you try things. And it's okay to fail. And then you just tweak it a little bit.

In academics, that's how I think about what we do, too. We see some challenges and opportunities. And I love exploring what to do about them. That's my favorite part of the strategy of the school, is thinking, how can we deal with that? How can we improve? Or, what could we try that we haven't yet tried? Or, how could we put a variation on something out there that's working but could work better? And that's a lot of fun. So, I like doing little things like that. It's just—I don't know. It's just motivating. It's part of who I am.

[17:34] Christine: If you're a student at Rice Business, I think it's safe to say you better like to read. And I know you're an avid reader. You're known for a lot of literary references in your speaking engagements, even poetry. Can you talk about maybe some of your favorite writers or current books that you're reading right now? Maybe, some recommendations?

[17:55] Peter: Oh, sure. So, I'd like to have two types of books. For the most part, I have fun, sort of year-long summaries, if you will. So, something that's going to take me away and be immersive. And then, I like a lot of non-fiction, particularly, around history or science or something like that. And fictional literature as well. I've liked that. I've read a lot of those in the past. But for my plane reads or when I need to just chill out, Erik Larson. Everybody reads Erik Larson, Splendid and the Vile or Devil in the White City, Isaac's Storm. Thunderstruck is the one I have now, which is in my backpack. I used to do that a lot. I'd fly on planes, and I always had a book like that in my backpack, but not so much anymore. It's coming back. Stephen King, I've always read a lot of Stephen King, pretty much everything. And he writes about as fast as you can read. So, there's always one of his around.

On the non-fiction side, I like a lot of people who think about big issues and write about them. So, the book Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari, which is a great one. And now I have Homo Deus, which I think came out a year and a half ago. It's great historical works. Steven Pinker always seems to have good things to read and things that I enjoy and have fun reading when they come out. So, he's got a book on rationality, but he did The Blank Slate.

And when I was younger, my dad would go. And he used to read a lot, too. And he would buy, pretty much, a box of books. You could go to the bookstore and you just get a box. And he'd bring it home. And he's like, "You don't have to love it, but read it. And if you don't like it, move to the next one." And that's the way I look at it. He read a lot of John D. MacDonald, which is a great of the day '60s, '70s mystery thriller writer.

And then I like economists. So, there's a book over there on my table by Ken Rogoff, who is a former professor of mine called, I think, The Crisis of Cash or The Death of Cash, may be talking about, in some ways, the trend towards digital or cryptocurrencies, and what's good and what's not good about that. And I just read this past week and I finished a book by Al Roth, Who Gets What—and Why. And Al Roth is a Nobel Prize-winning economist who developed things like markets for kidneys. So, how do you allocate a resource that you can't pay for and do it in a good way or create intern matches or med school matches or even admit students into an MBA program?

[20:19] Christine: That's a good summary list that will keep readers busy if they haven't read all of those yet.

[20:24] Peter: I hope I have more time to read that, too. But it is nice to always have something. I do what probably too many people do, which is I see a book, I buy it, and then I don't have a chance to read it right away. But I guess there's always that hope. You think, oh, I'll have some free time, which you don't. When I get the free time, I read and enjoy it and look forward to reading my next books, too.

[20:46] Christine: I usually have two to three going at once. Like you mentioned, different genres and depending on my mood.

[20:51] Peter: I learned to quit reading more when I don't like a book. I used to worry about that or feel like, oh, what a waste. But you think, well, the next one is going to be good. And I'll enjoy that. And it's usually true. So, it's a lot of fun. I wish I had more time for it, but I don't.

[21:05] Christine: You were recently appointed to the Houston Fed Board. Can you tell us first a little bit about what that is, what role you will play, and why that's good for Rice Business and the university?

[21:16] Peter: Sure. Well, the Federal Reserve System has 12 regional banks. And as the nation's central bank, this is how they manage monetary policy and a host of regulations that go along with that for financial institutions. The region we are in is headquartered in Dallas. That's the Dallas Fed. And the Dallas Fed has regional boards that help inform the Dallas Fed leaders, and ultimately, the Board of Governors at the Fed, about the conduct of monetary policy or business conditions alike. So, we're a small group. And we're really there to give feedback about how things are going in Houston and the Gulf region to the Federal Reserve Board System. And that means presenting a view of the economy, presenting a view of how it's impacting livelihoods, wellbeing, how it's challenged and how it matters with respect to the goals the Fed has.

And the Fed has two broad goals—price stability, which means inflation at about 2% over the long run, and maximum employment—two goals that don't always go together. But they'd have to be balanced. And so, that's my role. As an economist and someone who taught macroeconomics for 20 years, it's a nerd paradise for me. I get to talk about what I really love and ask questions and dive in more deeply. That's a blast. But it also helps me because I am at the table with lots of business leaders, hearing what they're seeing, what they're feeling about where our environment is going, what's happening, not just nationally but in Houston, how they're dealing with problems. And so, from my perspective, which I can use to inform the strategy of the school, it's hugely valuable.

Conversely, I also get the chance to tell them a little bit about what's happening in higher education, at a school like Rice, and how we think about our mission and how it's relating to the opportunities out there. So, that's been a ton of fun. In fact, later this week, I'm going to go up to Dallas for a Fed meeting. And I'm sure it will be an exciting one. There's a lot happening in the economy right now, trying to wrestle with inflation and worry about what's happening in the world with supply chains and the war in Ukraine. It's fascinating. But it feels great to be able to play a small part in national policy that way.

[23:27] Christine: And always a critical topic, but I feel like right now, in particular, like you just mentioned, very delicate time, I guess.

[23:34] Peter: It is. You always think things are going to be normal, and then the unforeseen happens. And so, COVID was in no one's script. We can point back to the pandemic of 1918. But the lessons there are far different. It's a very different world in which that took place. And so, trying to glean what you should do with respect to monetary policy based on something that happened over 100 years ago, really, at the dawn of central banking, isn't as useful. So, in many ways, this is the first time this has happened. And it's changed the way people spend money, the way you produce, shortages, what's in demand. We also have extraordinary energy transition to combat global climate change. This war has disrupted supply chains. And the globalized world is showing its fragility. It's super tough. It's really difficult to do all that. But it is something that's also really gratifying to be involved with. And you can also feel that it's important to do your best to contribute to the solutions people put forth.

[24:07] Christine: Obviously, a lot of people look to you for leadership, mentorship within the school and beyond, and particularly, some of your external roles. Who do you look to as a mentor? Or, who have you looked to in the past, maybe?

[24:37] Peter: I've had good bosses, good colleagues. I think all those have been my chief mentors. And now, I can say that I also work with a number of folks on external boards, leaders of corporations or not-for-profits that have been great for me. But in the university setting, whether it's a provost or a president, I've always had people that I could look to and who could understand where I was and what I needed to do to progress. It's difficult to self-assess always. It's important to have someone who can be a sounding board or a colleague who can give you the nudge here or there. And usually, people have done it with a couple of good questions. It's useful. It's funny how simple the best advice can be. But I remember having our president of the university say, "Well, what are you really trying to achieve? Could you break it down to one, two, three? And if you can really order those things, tie those back to what you're doing and how you're spending your time." And a lot of that effort, which is obvious, you think, of course, that's what I should do. It's about understanding, why am I having this challenge I'm having now? What is my emotional state relative to what I want to do? So, if you're frustrated or if you feel like I don't know exactly which path to take. Is it left? Is it left and then right? Is it some variation? It usually goes back to reflecting what you really intend, what is most important, and having the courage to make some choices that may be uncomfortable. But that's always been the case. And it's important to have relationships, because without a relationship, it's hard to have a mentor. It's not just someone who is an expert giving you advice. It's someone you trust and someone who has an interest in you, and vice versa. So, spending time with people, getting to know them, offering it back. I think the whole idea of great mentorship is that you don't just have a one-way conversation. They're two-way. And that's been my experience. So, usually, it's very close to me in the workplace. But increasingly, it's outside, too.

[26:48] Christine: As a leader, you have followers. And you actually have literal followers on social media. You're very active on social media. Can you talk a little bit about the importance and where you see your role and how you use that tool in your role?

[27:03] Peter: Well, it's evolved, I guess, like all of us. But certainly, not all of us, but like all the people my age. When social media came about, I don't think anyone quite knew what to do or what it would mean. And that meaning has changed. The first thing I liked about it is probably still my favorite thing. And that was that I could extend relationships with my students for a long time, because, back in the day, you might graduate and there was no LinkedIn or there was no Facebook or Instagram. And so, you waited for reunions or you'd hear second-hand, "Oh, well, that's what Christine is doing now. She's gone on to—great. Well, maybe, we'll see her again. And maybe I'll run into her at an alumni event." But social media was instant. And so, with the world happening around you, you could stay connected.

And I remember precisely that it was during the great recession of 2008 and '09 that was wonderful for me as a professor to be able to write about what was happening in the economy. And having former students, lots of them, write back in the moment, "Well, what about this?" Or, "I saw that." "Well, here's a great lesson I learned in our classes that seems to be happening today. That was thrilling." And then I morphed that a little bit into this, well, it's great to give people a view, not just of what I think, but of the institution itself, because people like to be connected. And there's always a dose or a dash of your personal life, just, who am I? What do I do?

So, that balance comes back into play, but it's meant maintaining relationships that have been valuable for me, but also connecting students and alums back to the school. I think people like that. I think there's a sense now that some first-person view of what's happening in the moment. It's fun. It's gratifying. If you had a positive experience at the school, people retain an interest. That's a special thing about universities, is that you finish your degree, but it's not a transaction that really finishes. You still feel connected. You still have an interest. And you still care about what happens. I think that's how valuable those experiences are, that it carries over. And social media is a way to maintain that.

I do less than I did. I think there was always this, okay, where is the boundary? I don't want people to—I don't like people shooting what they're having for dessert. But do they want to see this change in the building or the business plan competition? Or do they want to know there's some moment that is a nice moment that they might recall or remember as something similar to what they had? Sure. I think that's a blast. And so, it's fun. And I like it. And there's also the case that there are alums that I haven't seen in a decade, but we have regular conversations on social media. And that's really cool.

[29:21] Christine: Yes. And I think keeping cohorts connected, it's been critical. And I think of just the information that's been passed on and shared and references, networking that's happened that would not have happened if it weren't for social media, even among the different programs.

[29:53] Peter: Oh, yeah. I think that's right. And I think that's the other thing, is that people are curious, well, what is happening? And how did that happen? Who's doing what? That's meant a great deal for us. It's made the goodbyes a little less difficult because you think, well, I'll be able to see you, and I'll be able to know what's happening. And that's great when you make strong relationships. That's what you want. I tell people, and it's true for your program and all the others, as adults, you don't get many opportunities to really form relationships like this, like you do in an MBA program, with people from a wide variety of backgrounds whom you would never have met before. But you get close. It's wonderful.

[30:19] Christine: It is. It is. A once in a lifetime experience that I wouldn't trade for anything, yeah.

[30:53] Peter: I'm glad.

[30:55] Christine: I know one of your hobbies is photography. Can you talk a little bit about how that started? And what do you like to photograph?

[31:02] Peter: I don't know how much I liked it when. But when I was 18, I got a Canon AE-1. I don't remember why I asked for it. But my parents—that was my first SLR, single-lens reflex camera. And I think it just appealed to me because you could be a little bit artistic if you try it. But you didn't have to have hand skills. I've always wished that I could draw or have beautiful handwriting, but I never really did. And so, photography was a way to just take an eye for a space or a scene or thinking about light. And you could do something a little fun with it. After I had kids, that just exploded because, suddenly, you have your favorite subject in the world. And you think, oh, this is an important moment to capture. I think that's not always true, but you do it anyway. And so, I like that.

And then, I love to travel. And when you see parts of the world that affect you or that you think about shaped the way you see life, you want to save it. So, the best souvenir for me was always a picture that I could look back on and remember. And that's the same for my kids in many ways. What I like isn't the scene that I've saved, but I remember them looking at me through the lens and thinking, that was a great moment. I'm fond of that. And I can plug back into it.

I like photographing city scenes. I think the skill I don't have that I really like to work on—my wife is much better at this—it's just, somehow, getting the composition right without interfering with the moment. So, something is happening and you snap it. It's not just the candid shot, but it's getting the spirit of it in the right moment without interfering. I'm the arranger. I like to push people around and say, "You go there. Stand here. Chin up." You can get a technically beautiful picture that way, but it's not as wonderful if it doesn't have the soul of the others. And so, I'd like to be better at that. But it's fun.

Digital photography changed everything. You could suddenly snap everything in an infinite amount. And so, I've worked on that. And for a while, I was doing everything on my phone, just because it was so convenient. And suddenly, taking around a big camera felt weird. But I've gone back and forth, still trying to get a little bit better, but don't do it enough.

[33:19] Christine: A work in progress.

[33:21] Peter: Always.

[33:22] Christine: As we wrap things up in talking about photography and a picture, when you think of the picture of Rice Business in five years, or maybe even a decade out, what does that look like to you? What are some of your biggest forward-thinking goals?

[33:38] Peter: I've always felt like Rice Business had the best strategic foundations of any business school in the country. And what I meant by that was this great global city, connected everywhere, super diverse, wonderful commercial future ahead of it, in the middle of a state that is vast and that is underserved with high-quality business education. I think if you look at the mid-Atlantic or the Northeast or the West Coast, there's a denser provision of these things. But here, this great vast land of opportunity we have less. And so, Rice has a great opportunity there.

We've been growing to a scale that could meet those needs with very high-quality resources in the form of great students, great scholarships from a world-class faculty. And we have both of those right now. And we're building an even better faculty. And we're getting even better and more diverse students all the time.

So, in five to 10 years, I think we will be recognized for the school that we are now and will be even more so then as an essential place in the top 10 to 15 business schools in the country and, I think, unquestionably, the best one in 1,000 miles of Houston, Texas, is probably right.

And by that, I mean this is where people go because they have to have the talent that's here. They need to have the training and the expertise that is here. So, we have that ability to contribute, not just to Houston, but the state and beyond, through that academic mission. And I see that coming about in all that we're doing. So, five to 10 years, we'll have a much more robust undergraduate program to complement the graduate programs that have been world-leading for a while. So, we're going to be a really special place. I think people will look back and think, wow, it's hard to imagine. But in the early 2000s, it was a smaller place or less recognized. I think it's going to be that significant.

[35:30] Christine: And in a few decades time, competing with schools and programs that have been around for far longer.

[35:36] Peter: Oh, yeah. I think that's right. People don't always remember, the first MBAs were at Dartmouth, the Tuck School. And I believe they graduated in 1900, so 120-plus years ago. Even schools like Emory have been around for more than 100 years. Rice is an absolute newcomer in those terms. But our acceleration and our trajectory mean that we'll be with them and beyond them, I think, at some point. And I can't wait. That's going to be exciting.

[35:39] Christine: Is there anything else you'd like to add today?

[35:41] Peter: I just like connecting with all the alums at Rice and everyone who's interested in the community. And I'm just grateful to everyone for this opportunity. I think, when I was considering what to do six years ago before coming here, it didn't take me very long. And that's because I knew what was ahead. I suppose you could say it was a chance, but I've been extraordinarily pleased. And it fulfilled all my expectations and more. And so, we've got a great school. And I appreciate everyone that's part of it.

[36:42] Christine: Well, we want to thank you for taking time to chat with us. I know a lot of alums and potential students will be interested in hearing our conversation. So, thank you so much.

[36:48] Peter: No, thanks to you, Christine. It's great to have a pro like you interview me and be a part of this great podcast. So, thanks.

[36:53] Christine: Thank you, Dean Peter Rodriguez of Rice Business. Thank you so much for joining us today on Owl Have You Know.

[36:59] Peter: Thank you, Christine.

[40:00] Outro: This has been Owl Have You Know. Thanks for listening. You can find links and more information about our guests, host, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please, subscribe to this podcast wherever you find your favorite podcast. And leave us a comment while you're at it, and let us know what you think. Owl Have You Know is a production of Rice Business and is sponsored by the Rice Business Alumni Board. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Christine Dobbyn, and David Droogleever.

Christine Dobbyn:

Today on Owl Have You Know.

Christine Dobbyn:

I started talking about wanting to be a reporter when I was about 10 years old. I joke that I was always the kid in class that got the minus, who knows when to talk and when to keep quiet, so that's a good start.

Christine Dobbyn:

I have a perspective on the world that not everybody has because of the very good things that happen to people in their lives and the very bad things that have happened. I feel like now it's made me an incredibly empathetic person, no matter where my work takes me.

Scott Gale:

All right, I'm here with Christine Dobbyn, co-host of the Owl Have You Know podcast. I'm Scott Gale, I sit on the Rice Business Alumni Association Board, and thrilled to be here hosting kind of a behind the mic episode, taking over this episode and flipping the script on Christine, giving her an opportunity to come in and share a bit more about herself. Christine, welcome-

Christine Dobbyn:

Thank you.

Scott Gale:

... to your own show. Thanks for having me and giving me the opportunity to flip the script here. So we just want to just jump in, and I'd love to understand a bit more about kind of what are the some of the things that you're working on and spending your time on today, to kind of what does a day in the life look like for Christine today?

Christine Dobbyn:

Well, right now it depends on the day I guess, there's really no typical day. I've shared my story with a lot of people, but I came to Rice Business as a career pivoter, and I had about a 20-year television journalism career. And since then have moved into more of the business side of storytelling is what I like to call it, so working with various clients and helping them tell their story. And it's been a bit of a wild ride, I've really just tried to open the door to opportunities that came to me and have found myself working with various industries, have clients in aerospace, energy, medicine, education, real estate, and have also worked in a variety of capacities, it's all communications related and storytelling related. So it has been quite a journey.

Christine Dobbyn:

And I've said, I've been doing this full-time for about a year and a half. And given my experiences, I feel like I've learned 10 years of information because there's been so much coming at me. But it's been a wonderful experience and allowed me to see maybe what are my biggest strengths, what are my biggest challenges, where do I have areas to grow and learn, and what I just flat out love to do, and maybe some things I don't enjoy as much and either want to move away from that, or perhaps delegate that to someone else to do.

Scott Gale:

Do you feel like there's kind of a step-change in terms of kind of coming out of the pandemic a little bit in terms of just the mentality of the organizations that you're interfacing with and some of their underpinning rationale and reasons for why they're communicating and how they're communicating?

Christine Dobbyn:

Definitely. I think that the pandemic taught us the importance of communication, whether that's external or internal. Every company had to relay their message of... They were affected in some way, whatever their product or service is externally, and they had to convey that to their customers. And then internally, a lot of employees had so many questions about what they were doing to protect them. Now, you're dealing with hybrid work environments, and are they going back to the office, are they not? And so I believe that the role of communications was magnified in many ways by the pandemic, and people maybe have a better understanding of the importance of it.

Scott Gale:

Very cool. So it kind of feels a little bit kind of right place, right time.

Christine Dobbyn:

Yes, definitely.

Scott Gale:

That's awesome. I'd love to kind of understand, I mean, you mentioned kind of a career heading into your Rice Business experience in broadcast journalism. Can you take us back a little bit to sort of... I call it sort of like a spark moment. When did you know that you wanted to go into broadcast journalism?

And can you tell us a little bit of kind of that origin story?

Christine Dobbyn:

I don't remember an exact moment or event in my life, and at times, I've even wondered why did I want to pursue it because I didn't know no one in my family, friends who was really any kind of journalist. My grandmother had a love for writing, and they were the World War II greatest generation. And they didn't get the opportunities that maybe they could have had if it weren't for the war, but she always talked about how she would've been a journalist if she could have done that, but she wrote poetry and wrote different things. So, I think some of my love for that, I inherited from her.

Christine Dobbyn:

I started talking about wanting to be a reporter when I was about 10 years old, and I don't know why. I joke that I was always the kid in class that got the minus who knows when to talk and when to keep quiet, so that's a good start. But it really is sort of this package of a lot of things that I enjoy, history, politics, current events, meeting people, I have a huge curiosity about every topic you can imagine. And so you roll all of that in, and I also like storytelling, and so that's how you kind of gather it all and get to that point.

Christine Dobbyn:

In high school and college, I had a lot of those roles, newspaper editor, yearbook editor, any kind of communications type role where I was the one that gathered the information and got to tell the story or

share the news, that was always an opportunity that I was looking for. So, went ahead and pursued that in college, and then ended up throughout my career working at three different stations.

Christine Dobbyn:

I think I have a perspective on the world that not everybody has because of the very good things that happen to people in their lives and the very bad things that have happened to people in the darkest day of their life. And I appreciate those opportunities because I feel like now it's made me an incredibly empathetic person, no matter where my work takes me.

Scott Gale:

Just such a exciting background and experience, I think that... One of the kind of questions that I have is, I would sort of argue that kind of the average person doesn't maybe appreciate sort of the front-end work that goes into good storytelling, you sort of know it when you see it kind of thing. So my question is sort of around kind of the process and maybe kind of double click into kind of what does it take in your view and in your experience to kind of pull together a good story? What are some of the components of that? And when do you know that's working, and when do you know that it's maybe not working and kind of time to put it in the discard pile and move on?

Christine Dobbyn:

Definitely. And I think that's one of the biggest things people are maybe surprised about when they hear what it's like to be a reporter, and this could be a print reporter, a television reporter, a variety of ways. I think people think that we sit around and get our hair and makeup done, and then someone hands us a script at five o'clock. And I would say, I tell young students in college when they ask about the profession, I say, "You have to really want it in order to put the work in." I mean, the salaries are not great and they're not getting any better. It's long hours, it's holidays, nights, weekends, you really have to be all in and really want to do it in order to pursue it.

Christine Dobbyn:

Over the course of my career, the workload did increase with... When I came on, social media did not exist, so we had social media, more web expectations. So, you're really sort of a print TV journalist, and then you're also feeding the beast to post things to social media. But the way our day would start was usually with an editorial meeting, there were two a day, so depending on your shift, where everyone would talk about what's going on today. Sometimes those are scheduled events, sometimes breaking news, what are current topics out there that are trending? And you were expected to bring usually three story ideas to the meeting and make your pitches. And those pitches could come in a variety of ways, keeping contacts and sources, and staying in touch with them, whether it's police, an attorney you know, someone at the state House, bringing those ideas.

Christine Dobbyn:

Sometimes I would get an idea just driving down the street and I would see something interesting, so my eyes were always open. Any kind of a social event I was at, I was listening what's the conversation, what are people talking about, what's important in their lives. And then it's really, you hit the ground running. You have maybe three to four hours to turn the story, you're working the phones, you're trying to set up interviews, you're gleaning anything you can from the internet, any kind of information you can get. And then you're really driving all over the city trying to gather your interviews and shoot video and get the pictures that are going to match your story.

Scott Gale:

And you kind of mentioned this blend of skill and luck. I mean, you've been recognized at some of the highest levels for some of the stories that you've told. Could you share maybe a specific example of sort of where those things kind of came together and maybe one that you felt like was the story and like didn't really hit or one that was maybe unexpectedly kind of took a life of its own?

Christine Dobbyn:

About a little more than a decade ago, I had been in Houston a few years and I have had a bit of a fascination always with the Cold War, Germany, the Berlin Wall. I'm not sure why, I just am really fascinated by that story. And living in Houston, you're exposed to the connections with the Bushes and James Baker and their role in the Cold War, and the end of the Cold War. And I always liked to dive into longer-form storytelling. I mean, your typical news story is maybe a minute and 30 seconds. I really like a 30-minute show, and that's really rare to get to do in local news.

Christine Dobbyn:

And I had this idea of putting together some kind of anniversary show for the Berlin Wall. And so I had this idea of trying to put together something where we explained just sort of the Houston connection, and then also went to Germany to tell the story there. And at the time, we were traveling a lot, for local news, definitely, they had some budget to do these types of specials. And I went to my news director and I pitched the idea, and he said, "If you get Bush, I'll let you do it." And I was like, "Oh, okay. So, no problem."

Christine Dobbyn:

So, I started working, I called his press secretary and had a lunch with him and kind of told them what I was trying to do, and also went through James Baker's secretary. They liked the idea, they said, "Okay, we'll consider it," and I approached them in February and the anniversary wasn't until November. But time was ticking, didn't hear anything, continued my persistence, would check in with them every so often. Eventually, Baker's press secretary called and said, "Secretary Baker has agreed to do an interview with your special." I still hadn't heard anyone from the Bush camp. And we shot that at Rice, at the Baker Institute, and he was amazing, the way he can explain what happened during that time, how it all unfolded, and his role in it.

Christine Dobbyn:

And one of the things I learned was the relationship between Bush and Baker. I really think it was a once in a lifetime, once in a generation, maybe one of the best presidential-Secretary of State relationship we'll ever see. And the way they were able to get so much done was because of the trust they had, which dates way back to their time in Texas together. And so at the very end, I said to Secretary Baker, "I said, Mr. Secretary, have you been pleased with the way this interview has gone?" And he said yes. And I said, "Okay, would you put a bug in President Bush's ear that I'm trying to get an interview with him to complete this project?" And he said, "Okay, I'll do that." And the next day Bush's press secretary called me and said, "We'll do it."

Christine Dobbyn:

It was a spur-of-the-moment idea I had that maybe the way in isn't through all the press people and the handlers because their job is to kind of manage the schedule, screen all the interviews. But go through

the person who is the most connected to him, and if he liked the direction of the story and my interview positioning, then maybe he could convince President Bush to do it.

Christine Dobbyn:

So, then we ended up doing that, went to Germany, President Bush and Mrs. Bush both traveled for a recognition ceremony. And I believe it was one of the last international trips that Bushes took together, if not the last, because their health was still pretty good at that point, but you know. So what an honor to be there, and I think my biggest takeaway was... The recognition ceremony, it was Cole, Gorbachev, and Bush, and the German people and their appreciation for America's role and both Bush and Baker. I mean, I was crying at the end of the ceremony and a lot of the... There were people out there holding signs, and I had to ask them what the signs said because it was in German. But a lot of them would have been born maybe after the wall fell, or were very young when it fell, so they had this appreciation, the next generation understood the role that America had. I get choked up just thinking about it, but that was just an amazing career experience, but also an amazing personal experience for me to see all of that firsthand. Yeah.

Scott Gale:

What a special cool kind of starting with just kind of a spark and just having it snowball into just this great sort of the right story at the right time, with sort of just the right people there to sort of tell it. Thank you for sharing a really cool just kind of detail of kind of how that unfolded, I love it. Could we talk a little bit, obviously, Owl Have You Know is a podcast focused on the Rice Business community at large. And so can you share a bit about your experience heading into Rice Business, what was kind of the drive and interest, and share a bit about then kind of how that experience has pointed you in the direction in the things that you're working on today?

Christine Dobbyn:

Definitely. I had been exposed to Rice, of course, through reporting, through living in Houston, and was very aware of its reputation. I remember covering a story, it was in Shell Auditorium in McNair Hall, at some point, I can't remember when I was reporting, and I was on the night shift, and it was one of those... A lot of time we dip in and out of something, we'd go in, we get some video, we'd get a couple of interviews and we leave. And I don't even remember what the topic was, but I was so engrossed in it. I was like, "I don't want to leave," we had to move on to another story.

Christine Dobbyn:

And I just kind of remember thinking at that point, I'm going to go to school here one day. I don't know why, but I just felt like I had more to learn, and there was maybe an element in my brain I haven't fully discovered, maybe more of the business side. And so I remember that, and then kind of looked at the program from time to time. And then when I started feeling like it was time to move on from news, and I wasn't sure exactly where I was going to land, I felt like, one, I knew I needed to sort of hone my business chops, just coming from a journalism background. And also, I think when you're transitioning, sometimes having this big maybe platform, if you want to call it that. And also I've called the Rice IMBA class of 2020 my tribe because I needed a new tribe to connect to. For me, it was a great move, it was a great kind of segue to the next phase in my career.

Christine Dobbyn:

And it was challenging for me academically, I've always loved school, but I was so focused on journalism and undergrad, I hadn't taken any... I didn't even step into the business school at Ball State University where I did my undergrad. So, I felt intimidated just walking in, and a lot of my classmates are just exposed to lot of the things we were talking about in class on a daily basis, and I had been in courtrooms and at crime scenes. So it was definitely brand-new territory, but I loved the challenge and grew so much from... I mean, the professors are excellent, Rice assists you and helping you even with tutoring and things when you need that extra help. And then my classmates were there, not just as supporters, but what I learned from them. I couldn't have asked for a better experience, it exceeded my expectations.

Scott Gale:

Did you come into the experience with, as you mentioned, kind of with a pivoting mentality? You kind of had this idea that, hey, maybe I've done what I wanted to do in kind of broadcast journalism. Can you share a bit about how that pivot has kind of unfolded? Is where you're at today sort of post-graduation, where you had kind of seen, or what were some of the kind of steers along the way?

Christine Dobbyn:

Definitely. When I first decided to do the program, so most of the time in television news you work under contract, and most of those contracts, if you're on air, you're either three years, five years. I was on, I think, a three-year contract, and I had looked ahead and I knew that contract was ending, it was sort of in the middle of the program. And so the first year of the program, I was juggling both, and I think I used all my vacation that year just to go to school. So, it was hard because you didn't really get any break, you're doing both. But I knew at the end of that, I was going to just go ahead and leave, and I had prepared for that financially and wanted to focus on school the second year.

Christine Dobbyn:

And one of the great things about it, it enabled me... I completely leaned into everything at Rice. I went to all the mixers of the networking, some of the speakers, I just tried to absorb it all. The typical executive program, you can't do that as much because it's on weekends and you're working, and it was important for me to try and maximize my experience. And you also have full reign of choices of all the electives through the full-time professional and executive programs. So I took classes across all three programs and met students in the other programs. And one of the great things about that, for example, the full-time program, I was on teams with a generation younger than me. And I thought this is really important for me to understand kind of how they think, how they work because I could be managing them in a role looking ahead if not working with them as my peer, even. So, I loved it because I was able to expose myself and kind of see how they work, and work together.

Christine Dobbyn:

When I decided to leave my job, I decided to start my own LLC, and that would enable me to maybe do some freelance work on the side and have a little bit of income. So, I started Dobbyn Digital Media and did a little bit of work. It was enough, not too much that I was still able to focus on my studies, and wasn't sure where I was going to take that. And as I approached graduation, the pandemic hit and I had a few leads for some contract work and they all dried up within a month. And it was a very scary time as I had left my full-time job, was about to graduate, and was not seeing any traction.

Christine Dobbyn:

And then within a few months, I had a lead that developed from a Rice Business professor to work on the COVID vaccine trials and help with media and marketing. So, I can honestly say probably three- quarters of the work I have today is all from the Rice Business network, maybe our cohort, maybe a professor, or maybe someone within the community. But I think back to if I wouldn't have gone through the program and kind of told people, here's my background, here's what I'm trying to do, and they got to know me, I definitely wouldn't be where I am today.

Scott Gale:

I've got kind of a question because in your role as co-host of the Owl Have You Know podcast, you have this opportunity to get to know and hear the stories kind of firsthand of kind of the Rice Business community. Through that experience, are there some things that you've sort of, when I ask like enhanced kind of your perspective on the Rice Business community or changed your mind about the Rice Business community on certain things, a few takeaways from your time as host?

Christine Dobbyn:

Definitely. I've really enjoyed being host and have met so many people, some recent graduates, some from 20 years ago. So, it's interesting to hear them talk about how the program's evolved because Rice Business is still a young program compared to a lot of others around, and the variety of professions in which they are in, some of them who have been career in a specific area, others who have pivoted like myself two or three times. And that's the best part is getting to know them, getting to know their stories, seeing if we know any of the same people.

Christine Dobbyn:

One common thread is everyone just talks about how the program was just such an important part of their life in shaping where they are today, they all talk about the network and the people and the professors, and so that's common. The impact it's had on their life, it's the same again and again. So that just speaks to the power of the program and the impact that it has, but that each person takes that and sort of finesses it and moves forward in a different way, and that allows them to kind of go on the path in which they planned, or in some cases they completely didn't plan.

Christine Dobbyn:

I've talked to a couple of guests and I think they went into program thinking they would continue on their current path, and they met a few students in their cohort and came up with a business idea and founded a company, and went in a completely different direction. So it's really cool the way it opens minds and then gives everyone these additional opportunities and takes them in a direction that they never thought they might go in.

Scott Gale:

I like it. It's like this crossroads where there's just so many different opportunities and perspectives that are brought and like you're saying, like the opportunity to come in with a particular background and then to go and now spending time with totally different entities, organizations, people, and getting just kind of that exposure and experience. Kind of a question of in terms of incoming potential alum or potential students, or folks that are thinking about the program, are there things that from just an advice standpoint or things that you've seen in terms of what people should consider as they come into the program or consider the program to take advantage of it?

Christine Dobbyn:

I think making sure it's the right time in your life and career because it is true for two years you really have to be completely all in and study like you've probably never studied before, and taking on that financial obligation as well. So I think making sure it's just the right time. But I don't know that I've met anyone who regretted it, and there are some people who were, oh, definitely, I'm doing this, and others they were a little bit on the fence, but I think just getting into that mindset. And for me, it was the perfect time to be in that mindset, I don't know if a few years earlier, I could have focused in on that because I still had one foot in journalism or maybe two feet, and then I was just ready to step away and focus on something else.

Christine Dobbyn:

And I think you find a mixture, even in the people that I've interviewed, career pivoters or those who are maybe on the way to the C-suite or moving up within their own company. And one of the things that I've given a little bit of feedback on is I do think the executive program, in particular, the demographic I guess, or the psychographic of the student has changed a lot in the time of the program. You still have people coming from a traditional kind of corporate role and maybe even their company wants them to get the MBA to move them up into management. I think there will be more of my kind of people who are coming from one career using the program as an opportunity to move in a different direction. And then I love Rice's commitment to veterans, we had, I think, nine veterans in our cohort, and some of them were even retiring from the military after 20 years and moving in a different direction. And so I think we'll see more of that as the whole idea of staying in one career your whole life has sort of evolved over time.

Scott Gale:

Well, and particularly in your case, storytelling transcends sectors and jobs, and it's important to kind of across. I guess sort of a curiosity that I have is just kind of what are sort of some of those components of storytelling? As different organizations and people are coming in and you're having those conversations, what are some of the things that you're looking for in that?

Christine Dobbyn:

You brought up a good point because when I first decided to kind of make this move, there's a little bit of a joke in media that you're moving to the dark side if you go into PR, anything on the other side. And I think early in my career I would've said, you're selling out because as journalists you're supposed to be true seekers and stand up for the little guy, and if you go to the other side, maybe you're not doing that. And I've had some real, I guess, epiphanies along the way. And I think one of them is I thought the storytelling aspect maybe would have a different meaning. And while the intent is different, I mean, journalism, the intent is to inform, you're not trying to sell a product, you're trying to maybe stir the pot a little bit and affect change in a lot of ways, and for a lot of stories.

Christine Dobbyn:

Whereas, storytelling for a business you're ultimately trying to enhance the brand, increase the knowledge, help people understand the product or a lot of elements surrounding whatever the product or service is. But as I've gotten my MBA and really sat down and talked with even founders, CEOs, you understand that the reason a business started was to solve a problem. And the people at the core of that are very passionate about whatever that product or service is and that's why they started it. And so

there's still passion there, it's just different. There is the goal of a profit at the end, but that doesn't really lessen the story or the impact or the importance, and so that's been one of my realizations.

Christine Dobbyn:

And when I have talked with some of my clients and I see and understand why they're doing what they're doing, and I think that's an important thing is the why. The why always matters, whether it's journalism or a storytelling for a business, that's at the core of everything. And then I think the second key is really articulating that to whoever your audience is, whether that's viewers for a newscast or a particular audience of customers that you're trying to reach. Helping them understand the product or the service, why they need that, why it matters in their life and kind of wrap it all up with the bow, and bringing some of that emotion into the story as well.

Scott Gale:

Kind of driving a bit more authenticity and kind of relatability to a product or an experience or something that's kind of being offered.

Christine Dobbyn:

Thing is, with business-type storytelling there's more intent and you do have to be very careful, there's more legal reviews. We have legal reviews in journalism, but this is a different level when you're dealing with companies. You really have to be careful about the messaging and be very specific about it. But I think that once you kind of drill down into all of that and get through all the mess, you can find ways to help them make it resonate. And I think that's where my journalism background can really help because I do feel like, especially with a lot of big corporations, people just kind of glaze over.

Christine Dobbyn:

And then as I've gotten to know some of my clients, and I understand what they're really doing, and I think to myself, "Well, this isn't at all what is being sort of portrayed or what people are understanding, a lot of misunderstanding," so just trying to help enhance that story. And there's so many other ways to do that today, so many different platforms where you don't just have to go through mainstream media. You can have a lot more control over your story now using your own platforms, and that's been a big change in overall media.

Scott Gale:

It's amazing. Christine, this has been a fantastic conversation. Like you said, I feel like we could spend another hour digging up. I've got all these other kind of questions that I want to dig into, but I'm mindful of the time. So, Christine, where can people find you? How can they get in touch if they're interested in the things that you're working on, or just want to connect and hear more from you one on one, what's the best way for people to track you down?

Christine Dobbyn:

Definitely. I would say probably LinkedIn, I find LinkedIn to be a great platform and I have Christine Dobbyn, and then I also have Dobbyn Digital Media message and connect. And I've even met and connected with a lot of different people that have led to different business relationships that you never imagined, so that's always a great platform.

Scott Gale:

Very cool. We'll make sure and include those links and things in the show notes so that people can track you down. A big shout-out and thank you to the Digital Wildcatters for allowing us to use their space here and appreciate their support, and encourage people to check out the Owl Have You Know podcast, in the middle of season two and exciting things ahead for sure. And yeah, Christine, thanks again for taking the time, it's been a blast.

Christine Dobbyn:

Thank you, it's been great.

David Droogleever:

This has been, Owl Have You Know, thanks for listening. You can find links and more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website business.rice.edu. Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you find your favorite podcast and leave us a comment while you're at it, and let us know what you think. Owl Have You Know is a production of Rice Business, and is sponsored by the Rice Business Alumni Board. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself David Droogleever and Christine Dobbyn.