[00:00]Maya Pomroy: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path Series, where guests share their career journeys, the stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

Andrea Edmundson Bryan never expected to find herself leading a firm focused on developing critical infrastructure for the country. The native Houstonian and English major started her career as a Fulbright Fellow, teaching English in Malaysia. Now, the Chief Administrative Officer at Race Rock Infrastructure and the Rice Business Alumni Board member shares her story of how transformational mentors and Rice Business lead her to finding her true passion of leading and preparing our nation for the future in transportation, telecommunications, and energy.

Welcome to Owl Have You Know. I'm your host, Maya Pomroy. Our guest today is Professional MBA from the Class of 2020, Andrea Edmundson Bryan.

Andrea, thank you for joining us today.

[01:00]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

[01:02]Maya Pomroy: So, you were part of that 2020 cohort that never got to walk across the stage.

[01:08]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: We walked. We were just a year later, but we walked later. Yes.

[01:12]Maya Pomroy: Okay, you started at Rice in 2018. Oh, the glory days.

[01:17]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yes, exactly.

[01:19]Maya Pomroy: And you are currently the Chief Administrative Officer at Race Rock Infrastructure, which is a leader in the critical infrastructure industry and energy industries. And you've been doing that for quite some time. What drew you to that line of work?

[01:36]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Well, it’s funny that you asked that, because if you'd asked me that 10 years ago, I would have never said that I would be here. Just by a series of events and, kind of, the path that I went down, I think I really give credit to the individual that I've been working for for the last 10 years, my boss, Donnie Young.

And we started off in oil and gas. I started working with him in 2014. We had a path for five years at a previous company there. And he ultimately sold that business. And when he exited that business, I left with him, which was in between my first and second year at Rice. And we looked around and, kind of, figured out what we wanted to do next. And highway infrastructure, steel manufacturing fell into our lap in November of 2020. And so, that was the first acquisition that we had. And we have just built…we spent the last four years building that business. And so, being in this field is not something that either one of us, I think, sought out, but are thrilled to be in it. It's a great business in the state of Texas and in the United States as a whole, especially right now. So, it’s a great business and the Race Rock is doing extremely well. So, very, very happy and fortunate.

[02:38]Maya Pomroy: Well, we'll talk about Race Rock in just a little bit, but I want to talk about your upbringing and your childhood. So, you were born and raised right here in Houston, Texas.

[02:46]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, born and raised Houstonian, very proud Texan. I think I'm a seventh or eighth-generation Texan from family lineage. Yeah, I went to St. Agnes for high school. I went to TCU for undergrad.

[02:58]Maya Pomroy: You were an English major.

[02:59]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: English major, yes, which is, kind of, a unique track. I love telling people this. I'm the middle of three children. My dad's a physician here in Houston and my mom is a nonprofit. And my dad said, “Look, you can go anywhere you want to go. We will support you to do that. But you have one stipulation. You have to have a degree in liberal arts from an undergrad.” And so, my brother, sister, and I all did that, kind of, a different track. You know, you hear a lot of people say you need to go in accounting, finance.

[03:22]Maya Pomroy: Yeah. I'm curious about why. I mean, he's a physician. I was thinking you were going to say, “You gotta be a doctor.”

[03:28]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: No, he said liberal arts and, kind of, really embodied this philosophy that you go to undergrad, you know, college to really learn how to think critically and analyze and read and write, and then go out and get a job, figure out what you really like and specialize. And so, all three of us have done that.

And for a long time, people were like, “An English major, what are you going to do with that? Like, where are you going to end up? You don't want to teach long term or go get a Ph.D.” But it has served me so well, because I think it really did set us up, all three of us and myself, specifically, to think critically and be able to analyze. And I think that, kind of, plays into your original question of how I ended up in infrastructure. You just, kind of, take a path and you learn as you go and think through problems. And, you know, people… early on in my career, a mentor of mine told me, numbers are easy. People are always your problem when it comes to business. I think that translates anywhere. And so, very grateful for the path and having that English undergrad degree.

And then, of course, as you can imagine, going to Rice, it was a feat for me to get through, you know, the rigorous coursework at Rice Business, but I'm so grateful for it. And I think that that English foundation really helped me, kind of, struggle through it efficiently and, ultimately, very successfully.

[04:36]Maya Pomroy: So, you went to TCU.

[04:38]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: I did, go frogs, yes.

[04:39]Maya Pomroy: Yes. Up in Fort Worth. Wonderful town as well. Not knocking Houston, but Fort Worth is really, really thriving. What made you choose TCU?

[04:47]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Well, it's funny, you know. I really wanted to go to that big university in Austin, but they wouldn't take me. So, TCU, kind of, fell into my lap, but I tell people all the time that I wish my college experience on everyone. I had the best four years in Fort Worth at TCU — socially, academically, culturally, in every area. And it was the best fit. And I, to this day, stay actively involved. I serve on the Board of the Honors College there, go to football games, the whole nine yards. And obviously, having an office and manufacturing facility for Race Rock in Fort Worth is fun. And my husband and I have a house there that we maintain. So, lots of connections to Fort Worth that we hold really special to us.

[05:28]Maya Pomroy: And your husband is also Texan through and through, correct?

[05:32]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yes, he is, yeah. Those roots are very, very deep. A seventh, eighth-generation Texan as well. A lot of Texas pride, I think, in the family, for sure.

[05:41]Maya Pomroy: Well, and so, tell me about the Bryan Museum in Galveston, because that is your family's museum.

[05:47]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yes, my father-in-law's collection of, you know, basically, the settlement of the West. So, lots of Texas history. And it's a huge collection. I'm biased, but it's phenomenal museum and building and structure. And all the items in the collection are fantastic and phenomenal.

So, we stay involved on a family level, but then on a personal level, you know, being such a proud Texan, it's a fun thing to do and be a part of and support. And our history in the state is rich. I have so much of it. As someone, I spent a year abroad teaching English in Malaysia right after undergrad at TCU. And I was telling someone the other day that there were 50 of us that went from the U.S. to go teach and I was the only Texan in the group.

[06:29]Maya Pomroy: Really?

 

[06:29]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: And when people asked, you know, where we were from, down to the last person, everyone would say, “Oh, we're from the States.” And I'm the only person that, when asked, every time…

[06:37]Maya Pomroy: “I'm from Texas.”

[06:38]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: “I am from Texas. I am from Texas.” So, you know, bigger, brighter, louder, all the things, but lean into that really hard. And so, the museum has been something really fun to watch. We're about to celebrate the 10-year anniversary in 2025. So, it opened in 2015. Great for all ages, children, all the way up to adults. And there's everything for every need, from an artistic standpoint, you know — documents, saddles, spurs, guns, maps, paintings, videos, dioramas. I mean, the whole thing. It's so interactive and it's phenomenally done. My father-in-law has a huge niche and ability to see things and create these stories. So, it's a beautiful, beautiful collection in a gorgeous building down in Galveston. Yeah.

[07:20]Maya Pomroy: I love that. So, you had mentioned that, after you graduated from TCU as an English major, you went to Malaysia to teach English. So, how old were you? Were you 22 when you decided to do that?

[07:30]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, I was 22. Yeah. I went and taught English in Malaysia under the Fulbright scholarship. So, I went through the State Department. And I vividly remember applying for that and thinking going home the day I applied and just weeping in the shower, being like, “What have I done? Like, if I am so fortunate enough to receive this, like, you don't turn this down.” And I have no idea where Malaysia is, really, on a map. Like, I will know no one. I'm terrified. And it was a profound moment for me that I've, like, “Okay, this is a big deal. Like, you're adulting, really. Like, you're going to graduate college and potentially go somewhere.”

[08:05]Maya Pomroy: To the opposite side of the planet.

[08:08]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Literally, like, that's what I would tell my students, like, “Here's a globe. Here's Houston. Go to the other side. And that's Malaysia, you know, 24 hours to get there.” But spent a year, was fortunate enough to be given a spot, and spent a year teaching high school English in a very, very rural town, about an hour north of Singapore. So, I was in the Southern part of Malaysia and traveled all over Southeast Asia, got down to Australia. It was an adventure of a lifetime. And I think really, kind of, again, foundational roots on, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and figure things out and think through problems. And how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And so, after, you know, 10 months, looking back, it was a transformative year in my life that I will forever be grateful for.

[08:51]Maya Pomroy: So, tell me some of the most profound things that you learned from that experience. I know that it's really hard to condense something like that, but if you were to write a book and there was a chapter about this experience that you had. And how many total scholars were invited to go?

[09:10]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Fifty. So, the program I had initially applied, because there were only 15 spots and about, historically, 30 applicants. So, I was like, “Oh, the odds are in my favor here.” Like, you know, it's one of the smaller kind of cohorts. And the year I was granted a spot, the Malaysian government infused a lot more money into the program. And so, our program went from 15 to 50. So, we were, kind of, a guinea pig year in that capacity.

But there were challenges. And so, there were days, for sure, I would be lying, if I said there weren't days being like, “Can I do this? Like, I'm a girl from Texas that never had…” I had never… I traveled to Mexico with my family, but I had never been to anywhere in Asia. I had never been anywhere in Europe. I'm thinking, “Can I really do this?” And you're a lot stronger than you think you are, I think, is my biggest takeaway from my experience in Malaysia. And I hold on to that, you know, when I have challenges at work or at Rice and school. Like, I can do this. We can do hard things, right? And so, I think that would probably be, for sure, my biggest, takeaway — you're a lot stronger than you think you are.

[10:12]Maya Pomroy: Well, and I think that that's a common thread through lots of Rice grads, because I think, taking this leap to go pursue an MBA is something that, it's a choice, right? It's a choice that you make and you have to really believe in yourself, even when it's the most, you know, challenging thing to do and you're like, “Oh, my gosh. Am I smart enough? Am I strong enough? Do I have the time to do this? Am I going to sound like a fool if I speak up in class,” and all of those things.

[10:39]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: All of those things. It's so true. And it's not just at, you know, at Rice. It’s out when you get out into the real world. Like, all of those things constantly are presenting themselves in business and day-to-day life.

[10:48]Maya Pomroy: So, once you got back from Malaysia, was that your, sort of, move into Race Rock?

[10:54]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah. So, a little bit of a stint in which I came home from Malaysia at the end of 2012, worked for a small company in 2013, and then, in 2014, my resume landed on my current boss's desk, Donnie, and he hired me.

[11:07]Maya Pomroy: Who's a mentor to you?

[11:08]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, for sure. Having… yeah, having worked for someone, for the same person, for 10 years now. And I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I think this is something that you hear a lot from college graduates, you know. Now, I still, when I'm talking to people or trying to be a mentor myself, and they say, “I have no idea what I want to do,” and I say, “Don't wait for the perfect job. Just go get a job.”

[11:30]Maya Pomroy: Perfect job doesn't exist.

[11:31]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: It doesn't exist. Like, I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up, right?

[11:35]Maya Pomroy: Aren't we all?

[11:36]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Aren't we all? And so, Donnie hired me as his assistant, and I said, “Look, I don't know if I want to do this for my whole life. I don't think I do. It’s like I do know I want to go back and get my MBA at some point.” I knew that in 2014. I knew I wanted to do that. But I said, I want to learn business and I want to learn oil and gas because I'm here in Houston, I want to stay in Texas. So, show me what we can do with this. And full credit where credit's due, he did that. He took me under his wing and let me see and be a part of everything at the business, from top to bottom.

[12:08]Maya Pomroy: How big was the company in 2014?

[12:09]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: We were about 500 employees. We ultimately ended up being about 500 employees. We did a series of acquisitions. So, we weren't 500 when I started. We were an international company. And the onus, really, to get me to Rice, ultimately, was I was sitting in board meetings. I mean, Donnie was letting me sit in board meetings and I have a seat at the table.

[12:31]Maya Pomroy: What trust!

[12:31]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: And I can't read a financial statement. I'm like, “Oh, I can't… I have no idea. Like, I can hear what they're saying and I can, kind of, comprehend, but I can't read these. I can't articulate the right questions or anything.” And so, it was, you know, through that experience and that exposure that he was allowing me to have that I ultimately went to him and said, “Hey, that MBA thing, it's time. Like, I want to go do it now.” And he was fully supportive of that in every way possible.

So, it's been just such a phenomenal ride with Donnie at Hoover and then leaving and then, you know, really starting Race Rock, which, in its origin, was a family office, and starting a family office. What does that look like? And what does that take? And it was, kind of, a new adventure. And then finding out what sector we were going to be in and doing a number of acquisitions to grow and build a business, it's been fantastic. I've learned so much that I feel like a lot of people at my, kind of, my age or point in their careers maybe haven't had that type of exposure or experience from top to bottom, because I've seen it all and I've done it all. It's been great. Fantastic.

[13:30]Maya Pomroy: Well, so that's fascinating that it was a family office. And so, tell me the roots of how that grew.

[13:35]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, I mean, it was Donnie and myself in an office. We just, you know, how does this work? And, you know, I guess we need some computers and some printers and, you know, Wi-Fi. I mean, it really started off so basic and then, kind of, really developing into, do we go, kind of, private equity? Do we start a fund? Do we raise money? We’ve talked about doing a SPAC. What does that look like? What industry do we want to be in? Back in oil and gas, something totally different. Hoover was a rental container manufacturing business.

[14:03]Maya Pomroy: So, let's back up. So, we didn't talk about Hoover, yet. So, tell me about Hoover.

[14:06]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, it was a rental container manufacturing business. So, those, kind of, in basic terms, those stainless steel IVC tote tanks that you see out on rigs or stacked on the back of 18-wheelers, that was the bread and butter of that business. So, it was a rental business in manufacturing.

So, again, if someone had asked me at TCU, “Hey, you think you're going to go into oil and gas manufacturing,” I would have said, “No, don't think so. What? Yeah, I don't think so.” And so, Hoover was a fantastic business. And I learned a lot about, you know, oil and gas and how that works. But again, working so closely with Donnie, I was really getting to know, like, what goes on in an office and how does that really happen? What does it take to make that run and, you know, employees and the challenges and what people want and what they fear, all those things.

[14:50]Maya Pomroy: So, that was the beginning with Hoover.

[14:52]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: That was the very beginning. Yeah, that was Hoover. And then, Hoover was ultimately sold to private equity. So, I got to see a process run. And then, acquisitions were done after that sale. So, I saw, you know, acquisitions happen. So, there, I had seen so many things and been a part of so many things, integration efforts, that I knew a lot more than I thought I did about what it takes to make a business, kind of, hum and what goes into that on a day-to-day basis.

And then, you know, from Hoover, when Donnie ultimately stepped away from that business and I, kind of, sat there and I was like, “Well, this has been a really fun ride, Donnie. Like, thank you for the five years.” And he was like, “Oh, no, you're coming, too.” I was like, “Oh, okay. We're going.” I was in between my first and second year at Rice. So, it was such an interesting time for me having… you know, I was in the throes of business school and really figuring out, what do I like about this? What am I drawn to? And then, kind of, a full other shift in a professional sense on, what is that next step going to look like? And so, yeah, to your point, a lot of trust that we were going to land… I knew that Donnie would land with his two feet on the ground. There was no doubt about that. Yeah. And I knew that it would be a new challenge for me to, kind of, what's going to be next? And so, setting up a family office was, kind of, the first step and what that looked like. And it was, you know, everything from the bottom up.

And that had always, kind of, been my mentality, the idea of being above no task and I'm not afraid to ask questions or understand why we're doing something. And so, that really played well into building that office and then ultimately building a team. And then Donnie found a business that he wanted to go after. And so, again, having that, you know, previous exposure to mergers and acquisitions at Hoover, we started doing that at Race Rock and acquired structural and steel products in November of 2020. And Race Rock, the genesis took on what it is today. And the business has just grown exponentially.

[16:47]Maya Pomroy: Thrived, yeah.

[16:47]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, it's thrived. We moved offices. The team, now in Houston, there's eight of us here in the Houston office. And we've got almost 500 employees across the organization, across the United States. So, through a series of additional acquisitions, we've just continued to build and grow out Race Rock.

[17:04]Maya Pomroy: So, tell me about Rice. And first of all, what did your husband say when you're like, “I'm going to go get this MBA?”

[17:10]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: He was like, “Of course, you are.” You know, he was so supportive. And we were together at that time, but yeah, to throw another, kind of, life situation that happened, we got engaged while I was at Rice. So, we got married, you know, right after supposed to be graduation. We got married in May of 2020.

[17:31]Maya Pomroy: May of 2020? Oh, my gosh, you got a wedding?

[17:34]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, I know.

[17:35]Maya Pomroy: That's amazing.

[17:37]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, it's funny. There was something, you know, to it. We'd gotten engaged and I was like, “Okay, we're going to get… I'm going to graduate and I'm going to get married two weeks later, because why not? Let's just do everything all at one time.”

[17:47]Maya Pomroy: Well, you learned that you're stronger than you think, right?

[17:51]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Exactly, exactly.

[17:51]Maya Pomroy: I'm stronger than I think I am. And you are.

[17:55]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: And a crazy person for wanting to do all of that. But then, when the world, kind of, shut down in March and it looked like this may be a little bit longer than a-couple-of-week thing, I was like, “You know what? There's just something in my gut telling me, don't cancel this and try to adjust it. Just keep it.” And so, we went from 300 people to 12, just family, and kept the date. And it was magical and perfect and everything I could have ever wanted and hoped for in a wedding. So, I was thrilled. I wanted to get married. I didn't want to have a wedding. So, we did that. And, you know, I had front-loaded all my second-year courses because I was like, “Oh, we're going to have a graduation and a wedding. I'm going to be trying to be planning. So, let me try and get the slate pretty much clean by March so that I can really, you know, focus on the wedding.”

[18:41]Maya Pomroy: And then you got March.

[18:42]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: And then March came. And when everyone went online, I just, kind of, stayed home. Like, I didn't really have to do that transition as much as most of my other classmates that had not front-loaded as heavy as I had. Maybe that's why my overall experience was, I just paused it everywhere. Like, I didn't have to transition to online classes, which I know was just a weird time for everybody, right? But Rice, overall, was fantastic. And lots of things, as I've highlighted, kind of, happened in my two years there. You know, like, pivoting, leaving companies, starting new ones, getting engaged, getting married. And then also just everything about Rice. While you're in school, all of those things happen, too.

[19:22]Maya Pomroy: So, tell me about your cohort. So, that was 20… so, you started in 2018 to 2020. Because I know some folks from that cohort.

[19:29]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Oh, you do?

[19:29]Maya Pomroy: I was a little bit later, but, yeah, I started in 2020 when…

[19:32]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Okay, when I was ushering out, you were coming in.

[19:34]Maya Pomroy: Well, it was around… it was around COVID time, maybe a little bit before, was when I applied and got the great news, and then COVID happened. I'm like, “What? Wait?”

[19:43]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: “What is this going to look like? Yeah, I'm not sure.”

[19:47]Maya Pomroy: Yeah.

[19:48]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: I mean, phenomenal. I mean, I'm just I was, kind of, like a kid in a candy store, just, like, seeing and hearing all these people and talking to all these, you know, like-minded but super smart, talented people from all different walks of life, all different backgrounds, just a diverse class all the way around and have made lifelong… two of my best girlfriends to this day, I met and made at Rice Business. Was in one of their weddings. Yeah, I mean, it's just like all of those things. So, just like my TCU experience, I, kind of, wish that on everyone else, that when they think about doing an MBA program, that they have the experience I had at Rice, which was phenomenal. It was great. Everything about it, from professors, faculty, atmosphere, culture, social, everything about it was awesome. And I continue to show that to people in my, kind of, involvement with Rice since graduation that I feel really passionate and strongly about and giving back, and I'm always the first person if someone reaches out and say, “Hey, I have somebody that's thinking about, you know, MBA,” I'm like, “Let me talk to him. I'll talk to him. Let me talk to him.” Even better, if they say they want to go to Rice, I'm like, “Oh, this is an easy one.” I'm always, kind of, singing, you know, Rice's praises and wanting people to consider it for sure, if they're considering getting an MBA.

[21:06]Maya Pomroy: Well, your favorite classes, your favorite professors, you got to choose. Sorry.

[21:09]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: I mean, so many. I think Lansford… and this may shock people in financial accounting, but that was my first, you know, they let you lead off with that. And it's probably one of my hardest classes, that English undergrad. You know, I think I took a basic math class at TCU. I didn't have to take anything other than that. And so, it really, kind of, kicked into gear what I was doing and helped me…

[21:32]Maya Pomroy: Well, you were sitting in that boardroom with those financial statements. So, you're like, “Ahh…”

[21:35]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, it’s like, “This makes sense now.” And he was phenomenal and just, you know, a great teacher. But there were so many. And I found myself, you know, getting involved in things on campus, Board Fellows, which was a phenomenal experience. I continue…

[21:49]Maya Pomroy: Who are you with?

[21:51]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: The landing was the nonprofit that I was with. So, kind of, a safe house for women in sex trafficking here in Houston. And brought a lot of board governance to that experience since I'd had it at Hoover, right? So, they were thrilled to, kind of, have that brought to the table. And then served on the exec team for Board Fellows because I felt so passionately about it. I think my mom's nonprofit background really, kind of, came out through me in that experience.

[22:15]Maya Pomroy: Ignited that, yeah.

[22:15]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah. And then, you know, that weaves into the involvement that we have at the Bryan Museum now still to this day. So, it, kind of… there's so many, kind of, flows through my journey and my path that resonate and have stops, you know, at Rice. There are tidbits.

[22:29]Maya Pomroy: They all connect.

[22:29]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: They all connect, yeah.

[22:30]Maya Pomroy: Well, so, Board Fellows, for those that don't know, who might be considering Rice, one of the phenomenal opportunities is the Board Fellows program. So, could you tell us about that?

[22:39]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah. So, they put current MBA students on nonprofit boards. And so, it's, kind of, this symbiotic relationship of getting an MBA student some exposure to, you know, kind of, a board environment, some, obviously, smaller nonprofits to larger ones. So, those atmospheres are different for each type of nonprofit organization. And then the nonprofit, the organization gets an MBA on their board, which is phenomenal.

[23:06]Maya Pomroy: Win-win.

[23:06]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: The, you know, bringing your… it's a win-win. It's the best type of program or something that a Rice student can get involved in, but also, like, giving back to the community here in Houston. It's just, I love it so much. It was a great experience. And I'm a big supporter of it and actually have, kind of, connected the Bryan Museum to getting a board fellow on their board. Now, you know, after 10 years, the board has really, kind of, taken shape. And so, yeah, if you're a nonprofit here in Houston wanting a Rice MBA board, you know, member for a year, you should definitely reach out to Rice and get your name in the mix to be part of Board Fellows. It's a great idea.

[23:42]Maya Pomroy: I had a couple of close friends that did Board Fellows as well. And it was life-changing for them. It was just such a great opportunity to really be engaged in the Houston nonprofit scene. And there's so many different organizations. You were saying sex trafficking. There's also the Center for Houston's Future. I mean, it was so many different ones that really benefit and the student benefits, too. And I'm not sure that many schools have that kind of opportunity.

[24:11]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: It's highly sought after. You know, it's very competitive at Rice. You have to apply and do all of the…

[24:16]Maya Pomroy: It’s competitive.

[24:17]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: It's very competitive. But there's a level of importance with that, too. And I think getting individuals at Rice, you know, more aware and involved in nonprofits here in Houston, which are, to your point, there's thousands of organizations that exist here and do great work. And so, you know, connecting the Rice MBA students to that, I think, is phenomenal.

[24:36]Maya Pomroy: So, speaking of great work, let's talk about your great work that you're working on now. So, there's definitely big shifts in energy and technology right now. And you're, sort of, at the forefront of that with Race Rock. So, tell me about the kind of work that you're doing now and what you're the most looking forward to and how your company is going to continue to grow.

[25:00]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: I mean, there's so many, you know, big and exciting things going on. I think in, you know, in the highway infrastructure space and the arena that we play in, you know, steel manufacturing and galvanizing, there's just, there's always room for improvement, right? Everyone drives down the street. Everyone drives on highways. And you see the structures that hold the signs on freeways.

[25:20]Maya Pomroy: Nobody thinks about that, though. I was talking to one of my kids the other day and we were talking about property taxes and federal tax, like, those are these things everybody takes for granted. You know, you don't think about where they're just there.

[25:34]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah, they're just there until… and they're there until you need them, right? And the guardrails along the highway that protect you if you get into an accident. We really pride ourselves on, you know, providing safe passage for people in power. That's our, kind of, motto and what we hold on to. And I think that it's true in the energy transition space and there's a lot of people moving around all the time, especially, you know, here in Texas, with the amount of highways and freeways that we have. So, it's exciting work. It's great work. You know, the manufacturing industry is strong and it is the backbone of so many parts of this country and the people that we [crosstalk 26:09].

[26:09]Maya Pomroy: Coming back, right?

[26:10]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Coming back, we hope, yeah. In a lot of ways, we, you know, we've felt like it's never gone away because the business has done so well, but yeah, it’s coming back and we have operations in Ohio and in Connecticut. And those areas are, you know, equally as important and critical to the infrastructure of our country. So, it's great. And we're looking forward to everything that, you know, we have in store for 2025. The business is booming. There's lots of work to be done. Lots of utility structures, large poles. If you go check out our website, our Instagram, you'll see all the huge structures that we make and produce and provide safe passage for people in power across the United States.

[26:51]Maya Pomroy: Yes, which, you know, in Houston, most recently, has been hit by quite a bit of, you know, weather-related traumatic and weather-related events. And so, I'm assuming that that's something that Race Rock also participates in. And it's really vital and you don't realize how vital and crucial it is until it's not there.

[27:11]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Until it's not there and you need it, yeah, exactly. So, you know, creating these structures and all that it takes to do that and the teams that we've created and individuals.

[27:20]Maya Pomroy: And to withstand-

[27:22]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yes.

[27:22]Maya Pomroy: .. the types of storms. I mean, that’s really what it's about. It's not man-made. It’s, you know…

[27:29]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Correct, correct. And the landscape has changed, right? Like, it has... we've seen it just in Houston this summer with Beryl, and, you know, these small births of storms that can do so much damage, right? So, creating the infrastructure that we need to maintain that and move forward is critical.

[27:46]Maya Pomroy: So, if you had a piece of advice for someone that's listening that is considering Rice Business as an opportunity but isn't quite 100% sure, because you said, you know, if somebody wants to talk about going and getting their MBA, “Yes, come talk to me.” So, what would you say to them?

[28:05]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Well, there's never a perfect time. That's always the first thing that, kind of, comes out when I'm talking to somebody. They'll say, “Oh, I don't know if right now is the right time or in a year from now, or I'm considering.” No, there's never a right time. So, just go for it. You just do it now. Apply. There's no harm or foul in applying, and moving forward. And I also, you know, from my own personal experience, people ask me, like, why, why go get an MBA? Like, there's a lot of argument of, like, is that really necessary, you know?

[28:33]Maya Pomroy: I've had that, too.

[28:34]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yeah. And to me, I think it's, kind of, multifaceted. But going through something hard and challenging like that, it's always a good thing to, kind of, learn something new and challenge yourself and do something difficult and come out at the other end of that. I think that's important on a human level, on giving yourself purpose and challenging yourself and constantly learning. I fully believe in, kind of, doing that and cultivating yourself as an individual at all times.

[28:58]Maya Pomroy: An investment in thyself.

[29:59]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: In yourself. And then, also, for me, kind of, the big factors, I always wanted that tool in my toolkit. So, I can't tell you what's going to happen tomorrow, I can't tell you what's going to happen next year, what my life's going to look like, what pivots or tracks will happen, but I will always have this in my toolkit, an MBA from Rice that will always be mine. And I think it taught me so many things that I can always, in some way, shape, or form, lean on when I need it at some point — professionally, personally, all the things. And so, if you're thinking about it, my advice to you is go do it, apply. And if you get into Rice, the answer is easy. Go to Rice. You're going to have a fantastic experience and you're going to have so many doors open for you.

[29:45]Maya Pomroy: Go do it.

[29:46]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: That's right, go do it.

[29:47]Maya Pomroy: Well, Andrea, it has been so much fun to talk with you and such a pleasure to learn just a little bit, a little part of your story.

[29:54]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: Yes. Thank you.

[29:55]Maya Pomroy: And thank you for taking the time to talk with us. So very grateful for everything that you do for Rice. And we're going to keep up with you. And who knows? Like you said, nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. Maybe you'll be back for a pivot story.

[30:08]Andrea Edmundson Bryan: There you go. Never know. So, nice meeting you and talking to you. Thanks for taking the time.

[30:14]Maya Pomroy: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.

[00:00]Maya: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Up Next Series, where faculty, researchers, and alumni weigh in on the trends currently shaping the world of business.

AI, ChatGPT, social media: the risks, the rewards, the evolution, and its intersection on our lives is on the forefront of everyone's mind, especially one Rice Business professor who is making it her life's work to study these groundbreaking innovations and their psychological implications.

Professor Jae Chung is our guest today on Owl Have You Know. Born and raised in South Korea, Dr. Chung has always been drawn and fascinated by human behavior, which is now being transformed by artificial intelligence. She talks to us about her most recent experimental research, the unexpected results and her insights about how these powerful tools have exponential potential for the greater good.

So, welcome, Professor Chung. We are thrilled to have you here today.

[01:02]Jaeyeon: Thank you, Maya. It's a very nice introduction.

[01:05]Maya: Well, I'm really excited to learn more because, right now, AI is on the forefront of everyone's mind and, you know, ChatGPT and the interworkings of all of it. And you've really dug in to the research and the psychology of it. You started in psychology. So, can you tell me about how your start in psychology has, sort of, dovetailed you into this kind of work?

[01:31]Jaeyeon: Well, I did my bachelor's in psychology at U of Michigan. But before that, I actually did, like, a one-year college in Korea and I did econ. Like, everyone was telling me that you need to be a banker and you need to have a major in business and econ. And that's how I was, like, forced to do it as, like, an 18 years old not knowing what to do. And after one year, getting a B in my Econ 101 class, I learned that this is not my thing.

[01:58]Maya: Oh, that's okay. Lots of people get Bs and go on to have illustrious economic careers. [crosstalk 02:02].

[02:02]Jaeyeon: You know, in an Asian standard, that's not a good sign, especially in 101.

[02:06]Maya: I understand.

[02:07]Jaeyeon: So, I just wanted to explore a bit of the world out there. And Korea, South Korea is very innovative, but it's a small country. And that's why I decided to come to the States and I started attending U of Michigan. And I was, of course, undeclared, and Psych was one of the best departments they had there. And I was so glad that I just got to meet a good set of faculty members there, started to research. And I think I've always been interested in applied aspect of psychology because a lot of psych theories are so rigid and, like, so complicated that nobody understands outside in the world. So, I always wanted something that's more applied. And when I was trying to write a thesis, I emailed a bunch of professors in the Psych department. Nobody answered me, nobody except one person. And that person was an adjunct professor who was in the marketing and also in Psych. Her name is Caroline Yoon. And thank you, Caroline, if you're ever listening to this.

And that's how I started writing a thesis about nationalism and antagonism. It was completely unrelated to consumer behavior. It was more psychology. And my desire of understanding how the society operates, how this, like, groups, that goes beyond an individual set a social agenda, and how that all impacts us. Social behavior is what I was interested in.

So, that's how I started my thesis. And, of course, my advisor was a marketing faculty. And I got to get involved in a lot of experiments, meaning that I bring in participants, I ask them to respond to a whole list of survey questionnaires, pay them. And all this undergrad RA work was what I was first involved in. And that's how I slowly transitioned to the consumer behavior of marketing, which is now the field that I'm currently in.

[04:05]Maya: And you went on from psychology to not get, one, but two master's degrees and then a Ph.D. You have a master's of philosophy in marketing and a master of science, both from Columbia, and along the Ph.D. in business from Columbia as well. So, what sparked that interest in you in philosophy, in marketing, and then to go on and pursue your Ph.D. in business?

[04:28]Jaeyeon: Yeah, I mean, just like a lot of undergrads who just… or those who graduated, I just had multiple interests. And human rights was something that I was deeply into it. I mean, South Korea — I was born in 1980s — has gone through a lot of political changes. Before I was born, there was some level of dictatorship. Right above us is North Korea, which is still under a big dictatorship. And there's so many, so many North Koreans that are risking their lives to come to South Korea and to meet their family members. Even my grandfather and my grandma, as well, who has passed away a few years ago, came to South Korea during Korean War. And, after that, the country was split into half. And my grandpa still misses North Korea, not the dictatorship, but all the family members and all the… the hometown that he has never gone before.

And he was an educator. He became a principal in an elementary school in South Korea. He really built everything from scratch. And all his kids, four of them, became doctors and pharmacists, which is my mom. And everyone got their professional degree. But there was such a disconnection from the heritage in the family that we were missing.

And because there were so many families that were torn apart and so many of them were around us, it just came naturally as something that I was interested in. So, when I went to U of Michigan, of course, I looked for this RA work opportunities. And there was this refugee center that Professor James operated. And that was basically helping different refugees from around the world to get the right kind of legal resources. So, my role was to, kind of, organize and collect all this international refugee law cases, so that all these lawyers and legal parties can access and to make a more informed decision.

[06:28]Maya: So, let's talk about how you found your way to Rice, because, you know, coming from New York, Columbia to Rice, why did you decide to come all the way here to Texas?

[06:39]Jaeyeon: Well, because Rice offered me a job.

[06:45]Maya: That’s a good reason.

[06:48]Jaeyeon: Yeah. I mean, and Rice has a great opportunity that the school is providing to junior faculty members, for sure. I mean, as a person who has always been looking for, like, the best, Rice offers one of the best packages that all the scholars prefer to get.

In terms of the research funding, I'm not talking about how much I get paid monthly. It's the research budget that they're really fully supportive of. So, for me, I'm running a lot of experiments, meaning that, let's say that I pay $2 for a 10-minute survey. It's a very small amount of money, but if you are getting 2,000 participants to write a paper, that becomes a whole lot of money that I can't just, like, get from my own pocket pocket. And the school needs to support that, but a lot of other schools require for a high-standard research without providing the adequate support. And Rice is the school that really provides all these detailed steps. And they really protect the junior faculty members to focus on what they're interested in. It's not like you need to do a certain thing.

So, the school looks good. The priority is on the faculty members, that they really foster you, so that you can dive into the topic that you are naturally inclined to research. And that very safe environment, I'm not getting threatened by, you know, my job security. I can really explore as a child being on the playground. I can explore different things. And the school is a safe environment for me to do what I really want to do.

[08:23]Maya: So, tell me about the classes that you teach at Rice and about your students and the kind of experiments that you do and the work that you do collaboratively at Rice.

[08:33]Jaeyeon: I teach two classes. One is an undergrad. So, there are two sections for my undergrad. It's the most basic marketing class, which teaches, like, segmentation, targeting, conjoint analysis or case studies. Not many schools across the states have the business program for undergrad and Rice has started its own. And as a result, a lot of really smart students are coming in, flooding in to the school to learn about the basics of marketing or business, more in general. And mine is a very fundamental required course that teaches every little bit aspect, whether that be digital marketing, price, promotion, distribution, and so on, so that they can complete a market research project by combining all the skills and tool sets that they've learned through the class.

And sometimes, I talk about my research with my students. For example, I have a project on Instagram and I try to examine what types of influencers tend to be the most popular.

[09:34]Maya: Effective?

[09:34]Jaeyeon: Yeah. I get more engagement from their audience. And because a lot of my students have their own Instagram accounts and some of them are even micro-influencers, that gives us a really good conversation on how to make it better for a lot of their followers to respond to their posts. And, for example, some people say that you need to use a lot of hashtags, or some other people say that you need to post at the right timing, like, on weekends, for example. And those are all true.

And what I do is to get a list of 1,000 top influencers from around the world. And some are, like, traditional celebrities, like Anne Hathaway, like Kardashian family, but some are, like, truly bottom-up influencers, YouTube influencers, and so on.

And what I do is to scrape all their posts for the past 6 months. That leads to several, almost more than, I think, 70,000 posts. And I do the image analysis. I do all the caption text analysis to see which one has the strongest indicator that predicts the engagement likelihood, which is a measure through the number of likings. And what I find out is that, well, a lot of things play. For example, expressing emotion helps. Happy emotion helps.

[11:01]Maya: To connect with others.

[11:03]Jaeyeon: Yeah. But more importantly, negative emotion has almost three or more times effect than the positive emotion. Like, you are feeling depressed, you are so upset, things like that.

[11:16]Maya: And that resonates more than a positive emotion.

[11:20]Jaeyeon: Exactly, exactly.

[11:23]Maya: Why do you think that is? That's interesting to me.

[11:26]Jaeyeon: I think that this American culture is so accustomed to talking about all the great things that's happening to their lives. When you talk about something that's negative, that feels much more authentic. Everybody goes through a difficult time, but nobody really talks about it. But when you are, like, opening up, that resonates more with people, as my aunt just said. So, all this sense of self-disclosure tends to play an important role.

[11:57]Maya: Transparency.

[11:58]Jaeyeon: Yeah, yeah. And you need to… as an influencer, you need to be in the fine line between, you know, sharing your public life, but also some of your private lives, so that you are, kind of, playing a…

[12:09]Maya: A real person.

[12:10]Jaeyeon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that people can relate.

[12:12]Maya: It's all of your dimensions because, you know, being honest, I think that key aspect of being honest and authentic and real, you know, rather than the Photoshopped images that everybody puts up and you're like, “Okay, whatever, that's not… I can't relate to that person.”

So, I want to talk about a recent study, specifically about ChatGPT. And that was another question that I had for you. Because I have young daughters that are in school and ChatGPT, specifically, has been promoted in schools to be used, which I was fascinated by when my daughter came home and she's like, “I'm supposed to use ChatGPT to help me with this English paper.” And I'm like, “Wait, what? That doesn't make any sort of sense to me,” like... and then when I dug a little bit deeper, I understood what the teacher was trying to do and to use it as a tool rather than, you know, have ChatGPT write the whole paper.

But you did a recent study about ChatGPT as a powerful tool for enhancing everyday creativity and problem-solving. So, can you walk me through that experiment that you ran through your study and your findings on that?

[13:17]Jaeyeon: Yeah. So, I ran these sets of experiments with my co-author at EF Houston. And that was about the time when everyone was talking about the rise of GPT and how Microsoft is only bringing this OpenAI, and everyone was so excited about it. And that's when people started to talk about whether the GPT will really replace Google. So, my curiosity stemmed from the fact that GPT may perform better than Google or humans in subjective tasks. It seemed quite obvious that it does a great role, a great, great job in solving math problems or writing a code, but would it be superior when it does a very subjective test, which is perceived as completely human? And that was the creativity test that a lot of people have been saying that it's a unique territory of humans that no machines can replace.

[14:17]Maya: With empathy. Empathy was one of the emotions that you studied, yes?

[14:21]Jaeyeon: Right, right. And I was trying to challenge that assumption, and that's how I started to run a different set of experiments. So, I ran, like, five experiments, which is in my paper in nature, human behavior. But the basic paradigm is like this. It's two stage. In the first stage, I bring in people and randomly assign them into ChatGPT condition, web search condition, which is a Google condition, or depending on the experiments, it has a human-only condition where humans do not use any technological assistance. Or it's also GPT-only condition. So, you provide an input, you get the output, but you don't make any modification. So, it's GPT only. And then I give them a different set of creativity tests. So, for example, in one experiment, I asked them to come up with an innovative dining table that doesn't exist in the world.

[15:11]Maya: A dining table.

[15:12]Jaeyeon: A dining table. And in other cases, yeah, I ask people to come up with creative gift for a teenage girl.

[15:23]Maya: Oh.

[15:24]Jaeyeon: Teenage girls are really hard to satisfy, you know.

[15:26]Maya: So hard to shop for, I agree. There's no right answer. That's why it's like, “I'll just give you money and you go get what you want because I can't figure it out. You're not going to like it.”

[15:37]Jaeyeon: Right, right. So, depending on people's conditions, they either get the help of GPT, Google, or figure it out by themselves, or they just use GPT but do not make any more modifications. So, I get this whole list of ideas. And what I do is to remove all the conditions that are attached to the responses, and I shuffle all those and give it to a different set of participants who are called expert judges, or lay judges, lay person. And expert judges are hired from our Jones School. They were MBA students. There were three of them who had five years or more experiences in consulting and product management. But I also had a bigger set of lay consumers from the same population set. And I just provided smaller chunks of ideas that I got from this whole list of ideas and asked them to rate how creative these are.

And then, now, this is two stages. First, I got this idea. Second, I got this external judges who evaluate these ideas. And later, I matched this with the conditions that the participants from the first stage were assigned to and then statistically examined whether the scores from GPT condition is higher than the other condition. So, surprisingly, GPT was always better than Google.

[17:00]Maya: Huh.

[17:01]Jaeyeon: GPT-assisted condition was better than human-only condition. And there's this last condition, which is a GPT-only condition, meaning that there's no more human modification that's made after you got the initial output from GPT. That was even better than Google. So, using GPT was always better than not using it. And this effect held even in cases where a task involved some level of empathy.

So, just to talk a little bit more about that empathy task, I asked participants to read a scenario, which was that there were, like, two products that a mom owned and it was used by a daughter who's no longer using it. And she's now a grown-up. And these two products are something that's really cherished. And this person, rather than throwing these products away, they wanted to, or she wanted to, reuse it by creating something new. And I never wrote something that's very emotional in the text. I'm just describing here. But even with this context, the ideas that were generated by GPT was better than the one that was created without using it, with just using Google. So, it seems quite of a strong effect that technology, which was perceived as being incapable of understanding subjective human emotions, can now even do so and read really between the lines to find out the answer that the humans are seeking for.

[18:39]Maya: And that's just… correct me if I'm wrong, but that's machine learning. Is that part, like, is that what it's doing, it's just learning?

[18:46]Jaeyeon: So, it's really pulling different set of ideas or concepts. Let's say that there's different words that tend to be used more frequently. And what this AI does is to understand the common concept that tends to be connected together to come out with another idea that's pretty new.

[19:07]Maya: So, it's statistical probability.

[19:09]Jaeyeon: Yeah, yeah. So, what was really interesting here was that, maybe, because of that aspect of AI creating its own responses, the ideas, when rated by expert judges, these ideas were perceived as incrementally new. And what I mean by that is…

[19:28]Maya: Yes, it's not radical. It's incremental. That's another part of this research, is that it's incrementally better. So, let's expound on that.

[19:36]Jaeyeon: Mm-hmm. So, in the creativity literature, or in our field more, in general, innovation has been always examined for several centuries. And there are two types of innovations, which is an incremental innovation. You make a slight modification to what's already existing out there versus something that's radically new. And so, now, I had this list of ideas and I had this expert judges from our MBA program. Asked them to rate how innovative, the degree of innovativeness. And perhaps, because of the tendency of AI, just pooling the existing concepts together to create something new, led it to be scoring high on the incremental innovativeness. But it wasn't any higher in the radical idea aspect.

But this doesn't also mean that humans are so much better in radical idea generation, because statistically, they were equal. And it was, kind of, saddening, right? Because as a human, you want some aspect of yourself that cannot be penetrated by-

[20:39]Maya: Uniqueness.

[20:41]Jaeyeon: Yeah,

[20:41]Maya: To not be replicated. It’s… you don't want yourself replicated.

[20:45]Jaeyeon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, I looked a bit farther into this aspect, and there is a lot of researchers that are now working on AI. And I also found another paper, which is also in this journal of nature, that found similar findings, but the idea was that it's not that AI is better than human in radical idea generation. They also find that it's equal. And they, kind of, hinted in a way that there is a hope that human can be better, but not that AI is better.

[21:18]Maya: Well, because there’s also that danger that people are worried about with AI, that it's going to take over the world. And, you know, that is a bit frightening when you have people that are, like, you know, this needs to be regulated, there needs to be some guardrails put around this. What are your thoughts on that?

[21:32]Jaeyeon: I mean, I think that's definitely true. A lot of legal institutions are trying to make a law around that. So, I also have been examining AI art, how AI creates such wonderful, you know, masterpieces without any soul.

[21:48]Maya: Art without soul. I like it. No-soul art.

[21:54]Jaeyeon: Right. And art is all about, like, being authentic and, you know, expressing who you are. And because of that, like, people feel betrayed when they learn that this artwork is AI-generated. But, you know, what's interesting is that there's also AI artists on social media, like Instagram that… those people label themselves as AI artists. And they are not positioning themselves as someone who's stealing ideas from the others. Rather, they're saying that AI really provides them an opportunity to expand the limitations that they have. Many do not have all the money to buy materials to create their own stuff.

So, there's this positive side and negative side. Of course, there's stealing of the ideas is the biggest issue. So, nowadays, a lot of our legal institutions or language AI training, companies are trying to allow these artists to license their work so that they get, like, a small fee, like, Spotify letting musicians get a small fee whenever people listen to their music on Spotify. Similar term applies to these artists when they are providing their artworks to train their models. They get a small fee in return. Or, they can also exclude their products or their artworks from being utilized on the training of the model so that their artworks tend to stay authentic without giving other people a chance to, like, copy that.

So, there is a lot of movements that's going on and especially Europe, there is slightly faster movement than in America. But we'll have to see because I think the development of AI is quicker than how the legal system is moving forward.

[23:43]Maya: Yes, it takes time, legal issues. So, yeah, there's definitely that issue in terms of trying to catch up. You know, AI is, like, every single day, it's something new, right? And with ChatGPT, which I am new to, because I'm a late adopter, but now that I know that I can ask you what to get my daughter for her birthday, I'm going to, “That's my next question,” is I'm going to get on and be like, “What does a 13-year-old want for her birthday.”

But then, but the issue though with that is, and I want to know what answers your experiment came up with, is that ChatGPT doesn't know my 13-year-old and doesn't know her likes and her dislikes and whether, you know, she's on social media, which she's not. Just need to put that in there. But, you know, in terms of the things that she's drawn to… so, what did your experiment say that, in terms of gift-giving, what is it that the teens want?

[24:37]Jaeyeon: Yeah. And, you know, as you said, teenagers are very hard to satisfy. And because of that, we gave many restrictions, sometimes little, sometimes a lot. Like, you have to think about the educational aspect or the child really cares about aesthetics or being environment friendly because we have to be, you know, sustainable in every aspect that's possible.

We sometimes gave, like, three restrictions, sometimes, like, six restrictions, talking about, like, it should be about technology. And just to make it more real, every person got different set of restrictions. So, some people got restriction criteria on sustainability, some people more aesthetic, some about technology or, you know, with music related. One thing that I remember, and I'm not sure if this exists, is a solar battery charged portable charger that has an engraving of her name. This is, like, one those.

[25:30]Maya: So that it's hers and her sister or brother can't take it.

[25:33]Jaeyeon: Yeah, and it's a solar panel.

[25:35]Maya: That's fascinating. I would have never thought that that is something that would be of interest to teenage girls. So, AI is reshaping just about every single industry. And what direction do you think that it's going to go into?

[25:51]Jaeyeon: That's a very interesting question because I've been watching seminars and being into classes just to find out that answer as an audience and now you're asking me.

[26:02]Maya: I am.

[26:04]Jaeyeon: So, when people are asking whether GPT will fully replace these professional workers, well, in pre-confined, it only has a certain limit on what it can say, because it may be good in providing an average-level response, but if a person is really professional, the person who understands the legal term of how to create a dining table, what's allowed and what's not allowed in the industry, whether a manufacturer facilities can actually make it or not, those are knowledge, it’s not something that a GPT may have a full, you know, access to.

And I think understanding a broader aspect of how the industry works is critical for humans to fully have a control on GPT and to use it as a tool to develop their career further rather than, like, replacing here or there. So, you shouldn't be worried about yourself being replaced by AI, but you should be worried about you losing a job because of a person who better uses an AI.

[27:09]Maya: Yeah, that, I haven't heard that. That's really profound. Like, you're not going to lose your job because of AI, but you may be replaced by somebody that has the capability to better utilize AI.

So, let's move on to YouTube and misinformation because I don't want to miss this part because this is also something that you've spent quite a bit of your time exploring. And YouTube is a different kind of social media in that it's been around for forever. I mean, I think YouTube's been around longer than Facebook, right?

[27:42]Jaeyeon: Yeah, yeah.

[27:43]Maya: But YouTube is a social media platform that is also known to propagate a lot of misinformation that goes unchallenged. And so, tell me about your research about YouTube and misinformation.

[27:56]Jaeyeon: Yeah. As you said, YouTube has been there for a longer period of time. To my knowledge, it really started to take off from, like, 2012 or ‘13. So, it has been more than 10 years. But during that time, not many people used that for serious information. YouTube was mostly for entertainment, fun videos. The first video on YouTube was about zoo animals, so it was completely [crosstalk 28:20].

[28:20]Maya: I remember that.

[28:22]Jaeyeon: Oh, you do?

[28:23]Maya: I do. I do.

[28:25]Jaeyeon: Yeah. So, now, like, everybody's watching YouTube, like, not many people watch TV. YouTube has become, you know, part of our daily lives. What really led to the success of YouTube is that it really does a good job providing you with personalized content. So, it's really good. It's, like, one of the best platforms that I've seen and on different social media platforms that really understands your watch history, what people similar to your interests watch. And it does, like, recommend videos that you may like. And if you start watching, it just provides more and more. And this algorithm is a success factor, because the more you watch, the greater engagement, the more advertisement you show, and then that's how they make money.

[29:10]Maya: The more money YouTube makes.

[29:11]Jaeyeon: Right.

[29:14]Maya: It's economics.

[29:16]Jaeyeon: Yeah. But the problem here is that, because so many people are relying on the algorithm to find what they want, they are now getting exposed to all types of information that they'll not even search for. So, on the homepage of YouTube, you see some of the videos that are from your subscribed channels, but a lot of the channels are pretty new, but related content. So, let's say that you have an illness and you watch certain health video from a doctor, but then there's this related video about the same illness from all these influencers, and you start to watch all these related videos.

[29:51]Maya: They're not doctors. They're influencers.

[29:56]Jaeyeon: Right. The problem is that people don’t care about it.

[29:58]Maya: They're not paying attention.

[30:00]Jaeyeon: Right. So, the basic finding is that there is a degree of people who tends to rely more on the recommendation algorithm versus who stick to what they only watch. And these people who are more open to algorithm are more susceptible to misinformation. So, how I do this is to measure our recommendation reliance, or sometimes we manipulate it by assigning people into high reliance or low reliance. And then we show them different sets of videos. For example, keto diet has been widely popular. It works for some people, but it doesn't apply to every single one who has all the existing, you know, health conditions. But this doctor, like, self-claimed doctor… by the way, not all doctors who have the doctor's license are, like, telling the truth on YouTube.

[30:46]Maya: Right, right, right.

[30:46]Jaeyeon: And then this person is really arguing that everybody really should adopt keto diet. And the more people rely on algorithm are more open to this argument and they're willing to buy keto product and they say that they believe in it more and they're more likely to subscribe to this channel. And that can lead to all the harmful consequences that people have to bear on their own.

[31:10]Maya: So, what do you do about that?

[31:13]Jaeyeon: It's a hard question because YouTube has been saying that they're trying to fight for misinformation. And the problem to their approach is that they ask people to flag information that seems incorrect. But people who rely on recommendations are believing in it before they even judge it to be true.

[31:32]Maya: There's a bias in that.

[31:33]Jaeyeon: Right. And a lot of things are in the shady area and people never report it as being wrong. And there's, obviously, news that are, like, completely fake, but there are a lot of, like, shady news that are partly true, but not applies to every single human being, or it's only showing the partial truth, but not the full scope of truth. So, that's a big problem. And nobody has actually come up with it. In my experiment with my co-authors, we tried to implement it within our experiments, which worked. And let me just talk about it a little, which is that, we tell participants that AI, which is now so popular these days, is evaluating all the auto-captured captions on each video and fact-check it. And whenever it's fully fact-checked, it gets the green check mark.

[32:23]Maya: Verified. It's verified.

[32:25]Jaeyeon: Yeah. With the one that, that doesn't. And human can't verify all information, but the appliance of AI can, perhaps, help that. And when we show them that it's not verified yet, of course, they are much less likely to… they, kind of, put a brake on their believability and, like, try to assess whether that's true or false. So, that's one way of fighting for misinformation, which has not been adopted in the industry level, but let's hope that can be used, I think.

[32:53]Maya: Not yet, yeah. That's AI to benefit all of humanity, to verify truth or fact or fiction. I mean, it’s not biased as humans are. And hopefully, that remains the same. That's the fear, I think, is that you can manipulate AI. So, that's the part that needs to stay neutral, right? And that can actually benefit humanity. So, Jae, tell me about some upcoming studies that you have in the works at Rice and what you're the most excited about for the future.

[33:24]Jaeyeon: There’s a lot of projects that I'm doing currently. By the way, the project on misinformation is still work in progress. So, it's currently being revised for a deadline that's upcoming. Let's hope that I'm finishing that before the deadline. I also have a project on NFT and what kind of NFT art tends to get more popular over time. So, this is also a project that's currently being revised. You know, NFT art is, like, digital art, like, board…

[33:54]Maya: Non-fungible token, correct?

[33:56]Jaeyeon: Right, right, exactly. So, like, Bored Ape, a lot of people know, CryptoPunks are pretty ugly pictures, but they're also quite, you know, good-looking digital images that are sold. And NFTs are, basically, like, blockchain-based code. It’s the strings of letters and numbers that are attached to each digital work.

[34:17]Maya:[crosstalk 34:17].

[34:17]Jaeyeon: So, whenever you… yeah, you pay it, you get it, you transfer ownership. And everything is fully in the history in the digital world. So, you can claim for the ownership of your digital art. And because art is not only physically bounded, but it's really expanding to the digital world, I'm trying to see which digital artwork tends to get more popular over time.

[34:42]Maya: Like baseball cards.

[34:44]Jaeyeon: Yes, yes, exactly. And some of the artworks are really, like, ugly. Within the same collection, not everything gets popular. One thing gets even more popular than the others. And people have really no idea.

[34:57]Maya: Something tips and something doesn’t.

[34:59]Jaeyeon: Yeah.

[34:59]Maya: Well, it's like Malcolm Gladwell's tipping point about Crocs. You know, like, why did they tip? And what was it about them? And why certain things have this gravitational pull towards and other things, that you would think that they would, don’t.

[35:13]Jaeyeon: Right, right.

[35:14]Maya: And that’s psychology.

[35:15]Jaeyeon: Yes, yes. So, I try to examine what leads people to choose one artwork over the other. To do so, I go to OpenSea, which is, like, an Amazon version of digital artwork. All the NFT artworks are there. So, I go to Bored Ape, which is the most popular, the collection that has the most cryptocurrency invested on it, and examine, or actually download the number of likes that each artwork, each of the 10,000 artwork gets each day for a duration of 150 days, which is around five months. And I try to examine which one gets a steeper slope of like increase than the others, and then try to examine all the aesthetic aspects and all the minting time, which is the date in which it was uploaded, and et cetera, and find out which one is more popular than the others.

[36:06]Maya: Well, that is something that we will certainly look forward to, of some of your upcoming research, along with the misinformation that you're still working on. So, Jae, it has been a pleasure to have an opportunity to talk with you and learn about the really transformative research that you're doing at Rice. And we can't wait to see what you have up next. So, thank you for being a part of Owl Have You Know.

[36:29]Jaeyeon: Thank you, Maya. It was a true pleasure. It's my first time doing a podcast, and you made it so conversational I just enjoyed this time so much.

[36:41]Maya: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think.

The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.