[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

[00:13] Maya: Our guest today is Wendy Fong, Executive MBA of 2013, who has over 20 years of experience in culture change, leadership development, team effectiveness and capability building, and also operations. So, Wendy, thank you so much for joining us on Owl Have You Know today.

[00:29] Wendy: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:31] Maya: Absolutely. So, this has, sort of, been a pivot for you. You spent quite a bit of time in the corporate world and then decided to become your own boss and to become an entrepreneur and to launch your own firm called Chief Gigs, which, basically, it's leadership and team development and coaching and, really, building a dream team, right?

[00:54] Wendy: Yes.

[00:54] Maya: So, I guess my first question is, tell me about your background and, and how you really decided to, to make that change. Was that something that, you know, was spurred by the Rice Executive MBA? Is that what really drove you to the program, or was it something else?

[01:12] Wendy: It's funny because I actually started my business because I made a huge mistake, right? I spent 20 years in hospital operations. One of my last jobs in healthcare was associate vice president of operations for the neuroscience department at Memorial Hermann. And I had just such an amazing team of physicians that I supported and worked with. I built new offices, brought different capabilities to different hospitals.

And so, it was really super exciting. But then I decided that I wanted to make a bigger impact. And so, I quit my really already exciting job with great impact to work for a health tech startup. And I went from having my immediate team of about 200 people to about 10 people. And I realized, "Oh, shoot, I made a mistake." Like, the impact that I wanted wasn't the millions of people who would be using this product or the patients that we serve.

The impact that I really enjoyed, working at such a large organization, was that I could touch so many employees, all of the mentoring, all of the transfers that could happen because, you know, we had spaces for them to move up and, and so forth. Actually, after having been in operations for so long, I learned that my true passion was people instead of the operations, but it was just all so intertwined when you have a big job that you don't really realize.

And so, after that, I just tried to make my way to helping people as much as I could, which means working with companies. And so, I do feel like I'm doing the best work of my life now. I work with companies to help them figure out how to unleash the talents of their people. And sometimes, it means that this person doesn't belong or, or they belong in a different role, but it's that puzzle and helping them figure that out.

[03:34] Maya: So, maybe it wasn't a mistake, maybe it was just part of your path to really recognize what you're passionate about, right?

[03:43] Wendy: Yes, absolutely.

[03:44] Maya: So, you got your Executive MBA in 2013. Was that when you launched Chief Gigs, or was that later?

[03:52] Wendy: No, no. I launched Chief Gigs later. So, I had applied a long time prior to that, but I just never went. And then...

[04:02] Maya: Why didn't you go?

[04:04] Wendy: Actually, I had gone through a divorce around that time or separated, and that's actually what pushed me to start my MBA because I felt like I needed to just be able to lean on myself even more. And having the Rice MBA was definitely that security, right? And so, that's what got me to go back to school. And I loved it, and I love all of my classmates. And we just had our 10-year reunion.

[04:35] Maya: I was going to say you're coming on your 10-year. Yeah.

[04:37] Wendy: Yes. We just had our 10-year reunion. I actually just brought on a partner to my business, and she was my classmate.

[04:46] Maya: Ecosystem really makes a difference, doesn't it?

[04:48] Wendy: Yes.

[04:49] Maya: So, tell me about your time at Rice. Like, I mean, it was a decade ago. So, so-

[04:54] Wendy: It was.

[04:54] Maya: And you've, you've still remained very much interconnected with the university even 10 years later, which is something that is also important to highlight about the faithfulness and the loyalty of Rice alumni. And that's something that, if people are considering coming to Rice, that's something that, that they need to also recognize, that people once... I mean, you graduate but you don't ever really leave.

[05:17] Wendy: No. And it was so amazing because I went to undergrad at a big school, University of Georgia, right? And when people used to talk about, like, alumni network, I didn't understand what that was because there wasn't really that cohesiveness. But when I went to Rice, it just felt so different. I was in one of the biggest EMBA classes.

[05:42] Maya: I was going to ask you, how many, how many people were in your cohort?

[05:44] Wendy: So, I think we started close to 100, and I think we ended with maybe, like, 89. But I can say, like, the network is so amazing that I can say if I were to need a job today, I can reach out to my classmates, and I will have a job. They've got your back. If you haven't been through it, it's hard to really understand, like, what do you mean, right?

What does that mean? But, you know, we have, especially in the Executive program, we have classmates who are now CEOs of large organizations, business owners, you name it. And so, it's just an amazing network, which I didn't get until I went to Rice. Yeah.

[06:28] Maya: It's magic, huh?

[06:29] Wendy: It is. I love it.

[06:31] Maya: So, so, I want to, sort of, turn a little bit to entrepreneurship and your very first experience with that. So, can you tell me about that and how Chief Gigs really came to pass? Because obviously, you recognized that you weren't where you wanted to be and, and you wanted to pivot. So, tell me, first of all, how did you come up with the name and how did you build this from scratch?

[06:55] Wendy: It's funny because at the time when I realized, okay, working at a health tech startup wasn't for me, I tried to actually get jobs within HR. But for some reason, HR companies don't like to hire into HR unless you have an HR background. But I'm like, "Okay, but I've run a company, but I can't, you know, be-

[07:18] Maya: Right.

[07:18] Wendy: ...be your HR person." So, one of my classmates actually, he had led HR for an international oil and gas company. So, this is going back to that Rice network. He put me in touch with, I think, like, seven or eight people that he had either worked with or helped throughout his career and said, "You need to talk to these people to understand what their needs are, tell them who you are and you, you need to find your path. But, you know, I don't think that it's of an individual contributor in an HR department."

[07:51] Maya: Right.

[07:52] Wendy: And so, I did my homework. You know, I got really great advice that, "Hey, you know what? You don't need to be in HR to make that, sort of, impact. You can be a vendor, you can, you know, you can be adjacent to HR." And that's when I started really looking into what services that, you know, would intersect, right? And so, I went to work for an employee benefits firm, which services HR companies.

And I used to do the M&A for Memorial Hermann and this, you know, financial services firm. You know, we bought a lot of, a lot of roll-up in that industry. They really wanted my expertise of integrating acquisitions. And so, I got there, I learned all about, kind of, being on the vendor side of HR. And then I also was introduced to the Predictive Index at that company.

[08:47] Maya: Could you tell us a little bit about what the Predictive Index is?

[08:50] Wendy: It's like magic. So, the output is similar to any behavioral assessment that you would take, you know, whether it's DiSC or Myers-Briggs or, or whatnot, right? It's only two questions and the average time to take it is five minutes. And that's what I really, really love about it.

[09:11] Maya: So, what are some of the questions?

[09:14] Wendy: Yeah. So, there's only two questions.

[09:17] Maya: Right?

[09:18] Wendy: It's basically who you are, who you think you are as a person, and then how you feel you're expected to be at work. So, just those two questions, they've got you figured out. Most of my clients, when they first are introduced to it, they're like, "Is somebody spying on me? How do they know this?" But the best part about it is that all of the reports are in layman's terms.

Although I'm a business coach, I don't want you to need me, I want you to be able to read the report and take action from it without having to pay me extra because that's not where I like to live either. I want to talk to you about big strategy and growing and things like that. And so, really, I love it just because it's a model that anybody can use. Yeah.

[10:10] Maya: Absolutely. So, so, some of your customers are nonprofits, startups, and investment groups. Those are very, very different kinds of teams with very different kinds of leadership. What are the most important qualities that great teams have? What's something that often goes overlooked when it comes to optimizing team performance that you have found?

[10:34] Wendy: Interestingly enough, people's biases are so strong even though they don't know it. People tend to hire others who are like them. And so, sometimes I found entire teams all centered around, one quadrant. So, everything is you, you can plot people based on your answers into the world of work. And everybody is in the same quadrant with the same strength, but also the same, you know-

[11:04] Maya: Weaknesses. Yeah.

[11:04] Wendy: ...caution areas, right? And so, I think the most important thing is for people to be self-aware so they can say, "Okay, I know this other person might not be the person when I interviewed them, we just are BFFs right away and we hit it off. And maybe the conversation was a little awkward, but the reason that is, is because they are the opposite for me." And...

[11:31] Maya: Different perspectives.

[11:32] Wendy: Exactly. And, and I need that, and for, for leaders to understand, well, if you need that, then you have to be able to work with different people with different work styles. They might be introverted. They might need time to think it through instead of, you know, wanting to talk it through with you. They might need a lot more detail than you are willing to give. But they're going to be able to do their job better if you're willing to invest the time into that relationship.

[12:01] Maya: Well, and that's what it is, right? You know, psychologically, you do tend to gravitate towards people that, kind of, get you and you get them, but it's, you have to have patience and you have to have, you know, forethought of, of recognizing that not every one of those puzzle pieces needs to be a corner piece.

[12:19] Wendy: Yes. Absolutely.

[12:21] Maya: So, what are some of the important questions people should ask themselves to reflect on their professional performance and their own opportunities for growth?

[12:30] Wendy: So, I think one of the most important questions is how, how do others see me? Like how do I come across to others?

[12:40] Maya: And how do you get the answer to that? Because that's a really big, bold question because, I mean, your friends, are they really going to tell you? Or...

[12:48] Wendy: Well, so, the great part of the Predictive Index is that it tells you. Let's say because you are someone who is very independent decision-maker, you might seem overly aggressive, right, to your colleagues or to your direct report.

And so, what's helpful is then as the coach, you can say, "Have you heard this from your team members? Do they readily come to you with new ideas or with issues when they come across them? Or do you, kind of, hear about them around, you know, around the way?" Right? So, I think it really helps because leaders identify with their profile, and so then they're like, "Oh, well, if these are my strengths and these are the common cautions with these strengths, it could be true."

[13:39] Maya: And then you have to have that heart-to-heart conversation of, "You may think you're this way, but you aren't?"

[13:49] Wendy: Yes.

[13:50] Maya: It's a lot of self-reflection.

[13:52] Wendy: It is.

[13:53] Maya: So, what has been your biggest success and your biggest challenge with Chief Gigs?

[13:58] Wendy: It's so fun.

[14:01] Maya: It is. It's fun, but it's a lot of work to be your own boss for sure.

[14:04] Wendy: Yes, because you have to make yourself do work and then you're like, "Wait, why am I making myself... "

[14:09] Maya: Right?

[14:10] Wendy: Because I love what I do, it really comes through in everyday life. So, I've had the privilege of not having to sell. I actually have never gotten a client through anything other than a referral.

[14:28] Maya: That's the best kind. The word of mouth.

[14:29] Wendy: It is.

[14:30] Maya: Yeah.

[14:30] Wendy: And I'm so lucky. So, now that I have a partner, we're talking about expanding and she's like, "So, how do you sell?" I'm like, "I don't. I don't know. I don't know how we are going to do this because I haven't done it yet."

[14:43] Maya: So, how long have you had your partner?

[14:45] Wendy: So, she joined last year but we made it official at the beginning of this year.

[14:51] Maya: Oh, congratulations.

[14:52] Wendy: Thank you.

[14:53] Maya: So, when, when should an organization, kind of, take a step back and say, "Hey, maybe we need some, some coaching, maybe we need some optimization in terms of our leadership development, maybe we could be a lot more profitable and, and a lot more successful," so, what kind of questions do people need to start thinking about?

[15:14] Wendy: Yeah, so, I would say right now, everybody needs help, no kidding, just because the pandemic has just thrown everyone for a loop. And even if you think that people are operating well, they're probably dealing with things that they haven't processed yet in the last three years, right? And so, the uncertainty, the economy, the, you know, do I have a job? Do I not have a job? Am I going to get laid off? Like, all of this wears on people. And so, I would say before you start seeing-

[15:58] Maya: The cracks.

[15:59] Wendy: ...performance issues... Right. Before you start seeing the cracks is when you should really be engaging and building. Unfortunately, the issue with, I think, a lot of organizations is that they don't invest enough money into training and development. They don't invest enough money into HR departments. It's the entire company's, you know, issue, right? It shouldn't just be handled by HR. And a lot of organizations, HR doesn't even have a seat at the table.

[16:28] Maya: Yeah.

[16:28] Wendy: So, they're not able to say, "Hey, we need to engage our employees instead of just keep doing more and more work." But, like, instead of, preventing all of this, the HR department then has to basically just fill open spots.

[16:48] Maya: And so, you're also involved with the Valhalla Investment Group at Rice.

[16:52] Wendy: Yes.

[16:52] Maya: Tell me about the Valhalla Investment Group, and how you became involved, and how did you get your start in investing in startups?

[17:01] Wendy: Valhalla Investment Group was started in 2012. Apparently, I don't remember this, but I was at one of the first meetings. They invited the 2013 EMBAs to attend and that's how I was introduced to angel investment. I just didn't even know how people got money for their startups prior to that, right?

[17:22] Maya: Yeah.

[17:22] Wendy: And so, it was really fun. We initially invested in funds or in real estate projects, you know, things that were more, kind of, steady. But when I started working for the startup, then I got exposed to all of these other, you know, startups, and I, I, I, kind of, brought them in to pitch. And so, I guess, like, we just became the stable people who were organizing the events and everything. And we changed the model of leadership.

We decided, "Okay, so, people who are currently in school, they have a lot more time and a lot more connection. And this is a really, really great way to expose current students in this type of investing, in the whole startup ecosystem as the managing directors." And so, we shifted the people who were leading it to become board members. And then each year, a new managing director or directors are appointed and then they roll on to be board members.

[18:27] Maya: Yes, I know. That happened in my class as well. There was an application process that was fairly rigorous with lots of math that people needed to do in order to be considered. So, I guess it's coming on its 11th year, VIG. It's called VIG, right? Valhalla-

[18:42] Wendy: Yes, yes.

[18:43] Maya: ...Investment Group. For short-

[18:44] Wendy: Mm-hmm.

[18:44] Maya: ...it's VIG. And so tell me how VIG has been doing.

[18:46] Wendy: So, it's been going well. We have regular meetings, probably about six to eight of them a year. And actually, the investments aren't just startups. Some of them really are more traditional funds or real estate. But based on your own investing profile, you can really get involved in different things. And so, over the years, and the number might be a little off, but we have invested in over $8 million over the years. It might be a little bit more, but yeah.

[19:23] Maya: Going back to, like, a personal level. So, you are very philanthropic. Not only are you involved with a lot of other nonprofits here in town, but you're also a part of United Against Human Trafficking.

[19:34] Wendy: So, I quit my job and I was like, I am not doing, you know, what I want to do, what I love to do. So, I took some time off. And there's been another EMBA who totally agrees with me that gap years for adults is such a great thing because it really sets you on a better path, right? So, during this gap year is when I did all my research on human resources, I also thought about how I had always wanted to volunteer when I was younger, but I never found the time to.

And why not fill my time now with the causes that I'm interested in and then fill work back in, right? Because that's, that's truly how I want to live. So, I thought about what world issues I really care about, and it's human trafficking. So, I researched the organizations in Houston and found that United Against Human Trafficking is not only its own nonprofit serving the people, but they run a coalition of all of the Houston-based anti-trafficking organizations.

And they are able to bring all sorts of different organizations together, whether they're faith-based or not, to unify them in this one cause. And so, I really love that kind of community-building piece. And they've actually expanded into Lake Charles, and they've built a coalition in Lake Charles as well.

[21:10] Maya: That's fantastic. So, I've also read that one of your, like, goals is to move to Cambodia and start a nonprofit. So, tell me about that. What kind of a nonprofit? Would it be based on, on human trafficking as well?

[21:24] Wendy: Yes. And so, the reason I even really knew about it or learned about it was when I was traveling in Cambodia in 2010, I, kind of, saw firsthand how open it is. And I started doing research. I realized, "Oh, wow. It's not just in developing countries in Asia or, or, somewhere else. It's actually right here in Houston."

And so, that's what led me to being a board member at United Against Human Trafficking. But I do want to help on a more global level. And in fact, one of my friends, who's also an MBA, is doing a world listening tour right now of anti-human trafficking organizations, so that maybe we can figure out what we can do.

[22:19] Maya: It's a huge problem, you know. And, within Houston, it's, kind of, known as one of the sex trafficking, unfortunately, capitals of the world just because you've got I-10 and you've also got I-35, right? You know, very close by.

[22:30] Wendy: Right.

[22:31] Maya: And, and that's, you know, from Canada to Mexico and from one coast to the other. It's a serious problem that I think a lot of nonprofits are working with different legislatures to really squash out, to make it a thing of the past.

[22:44] Wendy: Yeah. And, you know, there's just so much within the space that you could work in. For example, financial literacy. And you're like, "Well, what do you, what do you mean?" Like, there are so many survivors who need just the basic education, and if you are a financial planner, could you help provide classes for people who are trying to learn and get their life back?

Understanding demand reduction because I also do think that a lot of people don't understand that a lot of the people that they're interacting with are there against their will, right? And so, understanding that this isn't a service that you should and can buy, like, that is helpful.

[23:37] Maya: Right.

[23:37] Wendy: Yeah.

[23:38] Maya: Well, so, so, let's also talk about something that you have overcome in the last, I guess, six months. So, in October of 2022, you discovered that you have breast cancer. So, tell me about that jolting experience, and how you've gone through that, and the treatment, and how you're doing now.

[24:02] Wendy: Yeah, so, I would say, one, get your annual mammogram. That's actually how I found, which is unfortunately a small percentage of the case. A lot of women just don't get their mammograms. But I got my mammogram and then they said, "Oh, you just need extra testing," right? And so, I was like, "Okay, so, I need a biopsy."

I did the biopsy, and it came back benign. But they said, "Well, we'll just send you to a surgeon anyway." And so, when I met with the surgeon, she said, "Well, you know, it came back benign, but it can become cancerous. And so, you know, our recommendation is that, you know, you remove it, but there's not really any timeline."

And this is maybe in May. So, I'm like, "Oh, great, I'm going to schedule this after the summer, after all of my trips and, you know, vacations." Right? So, I scheduled it for October. And what I thought was just a regular lumpectomy, which is removing the lump, she called me to say that it actually was cancerous but that the biopsy had missed it.

[25:08] Maya: Wow.

[25:09] Wendy: So, I was like...

[25:11] Maya: It probably knocked the breath out of you.

[25:13] Wendy: It did. I was so shocked because that just was... it had been there this whole time, this whole time that I could have taken care of it, and I just, like, didn't know or didn't understand. So, we had to do a second surgery to get the rest of it out now that we understood what it was and go through radiation.

But what I learned through this process was everybody wants to offer you food when you are going through illness. And you're not hungry. No. People are like, "Can I bring you dinner? Can I bring you food?" You're already so overwhelmed-

[26:00] Maya: Oh, gosh.

[26:01] Wendy: ... and you're just like, "I don't need food."

[26:04] Maya: Right.

[26:05] Wendy: You know. What I needed was... Oh, my gosh. All of these referrals take so long, and then when you call a doctor's office, and I, I was in healthcare, so, I know this, you can't make an appointment. You can't talk to the person that you need to talk to because you call them and then somebody takes a message and then they call you back. But you're in the bathroom at that time for, you know, every single time, right?

And so, it became so stressful just making doctor's appointments. And that's what I needed help with. That's what my husband did for me because he didn't have a job that... You know, he, he, he, he works for himself as well, and he didn't, he didn't go to meetings. He was more of a process person. And so, he's like, "Yeah, I can make phone calls if that's what you need." I'm like, "Yes."

And that was actually, this experience has become now a situational leadership course that I'm teaching with my partner because if we can actually give our employees what they need instead of all this other stuff, so, not food, but phone calls. So, if we can give our employees training, information, whatever, right? If we can understand that, then how much better would they be at their jobs, knowing that their needs are met?

[27:33] Maya: And knowing how to ask what those needs are in a-

[27:36] Wendy: Yes.

[27:36] Maya: ...tactful and a meaningful way, right?

[27:39] Wendy: Yes, yes. Absolutely.

[27:42] Maya: I think that's probably what people do is they're just like, "Well, I can, I mean, I can start a meal train for you," or, "I can do the..." But instead of saying, "You know, just be honest with me. What do you need? I, you know, I will do what you need, but you have to tell me."

It might be a good idea for a venture launch of doing this for people that are going through these sorts of health issues that, you know, you, you can basically say, "I don't need food. I need somebody to do this, this, and this." And then folks can sign up for that. But I think that just, sort of, the, the fallback of-

[28:17] Wendy: Right.

[28:17] Maya: "...Okay, I can, I can feed them. That, that I can do." Now, that actually just taught me that I need to ask very specific questions of what is it that you need.

[28:28] Wendy: Yeah. Well, so, one of the best gifts that I got was... So, a friend of mine, and she's so intuitive, but she didn't even tell me she was coming over. She dropped off a gift card in the mailbox and just texted me later to say, "Hey, I dropped off something in your mailbox because I do think that it's great to just not have to-

[28:50] Maya: See people?

[28:51] Wendy: ...be expected to see people." Right? And it was a gift card to the Blow Dry Bar, you know, the hair styling-

[28:58] Maya: Nice. Uh-huh.

[29:00] Wendy: ...place. And I was like, "Why do I need this?" But apparently, she knew I needed it because after I got the second surgery, I actually got an infection in my arm and I couldn't, like, do my hair. I couldn't really lift it. And so, I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is genius."

[29:19] Maya: Yes.

[29:20] Wendy: But how could she have known, you know? And, and to just drop it off with no, like, expectation of having to talk or whatnot. Like, that was really helpful. Yeah.

[29:33] Maya: Those are the best kind of friends, the ones that are intuitive and they just know. And every, every one of us, you know, have those two or three treasured people that, that just get it. Those are the fruits of life, right?

[29:45] Wendy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

[29:45] Maya: The sweetest of the fruits. So, what's next for you? Tell me about your long-term goals. What are you planning on doing in the next few years? I know you want to grow Chief Gigs more, but what's, what's next?

[29:57] Wendy: I do. And I actually have been talking to my partner about doing a new startup on employee engagement based on needs. So, instead of getting swag that you just end up putting in a drawer, what if you told, you know, a platform what you needed?

[30:16] Maya: Nice.

[30:16] Wendy: And the company can pay for a... Let's say my goal is to buy a house in three years. You know, you don't have to take any sort of tests or anything, but if the company knows that that's your goal, "Hey, we can pay for a financial advisor to walk you through your finances." Right? As opposed to, "Hey, we're just going to give you a blanket with our logo on it." You know, you can't buy a house with it, but you can keep warm, right?

[30:47] Maya: I get it.

[30:47] Wendy: Thank you, but that's not really what I'm, what I'm hoping for.

[30:51] Maya: That's awesome, Wendy. That's so exciting.

[30:54] Wendy: Thank you.

[30:55] Maya: Well, you know, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. I'm thrilled about all of these wonderful things that are happening for you. I would love to stay in touch and catch up with you, you know-

[31:05] Wendy: Absolutely.

[31:05] Maya: ...going forward. We really appreciate your time and, and for carving some time out for us. It's been wonderful.

[31:12] Wendy: Thank you. I'm so excited. And you've done such a great job with all the podcasts. I'm just, yeah, excited to be on.

[31:19] Maya: Well, I'm excited to have guests like you. That's the best part. Thanks so much.

[31:23] Wendy: Thank you.

[31:26] Outro: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe then leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Scott Gale, and Maya Pomroy.

[00:00]Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

[00:00]Peter: Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to the Jones Graduate School of Business here at Rice University and to this live broadcast of our podcast, Owl Have You Know. Today, I have the great pleasure of introducing our provost of Rice University, Amy Dittmar. And no pressure on you for great applause, but she's my boss, so let's try to look good.

Here's a little bit of background on Amy. Amy is a distinguished scholar with an extensive background in economics, finance, and university administration. She is the provost, as well as a professor of finance with Rice's Jones Graduate School of Business and a professor of economics with the School of Social Sciences.

Provost is not a name that maybe… or a title that translates perfectly to the outside world, but this is the chief academic officer of the university. And just to go off script, I'd say I think, it, to many, would seem like the toughest job at the university. I don't say that just because she has to work with all the deans, but it really is leading the whole academic enterprise, including direct reporting relationships for the deans of eight schools, the dean of undergraduates, the dean of graduate and postdoctoral studies, and other key leaders.

Amy is a co-leading… is co-leading a transformation of the university's budget process and chairs our university's strategic planning committee.

A little bit about Amy. Prior to Rice, she held a series of top-level administrative roles at the University of Michigan, including senior vice provost from 2020 to 2022. She also served as a board member and secretary of Michigan Health Corporation, chair of a behavioral science research initiative task force, co-chair of the Student Mental Health and Well Being Implementation Committee, and a board member of the Michigan Mobility Transportation Center.

Before her career at the University of Michigan, Amy was an assistant professor at Indiana University and a financial analyst and real estate officer at First Chicago Corp, now part of JPMorgan Chase.

She earned her bachelor's degree in finance and business economics from Indiana University and her PhD in finance from the University of North Carolina. She's a scholar of corporate finance, governance, and gender economics.

We couldn't be more pleased to have her here today. And now, I'll turn it over to our host, Scott Gale, EMBA class of not too many years ago. Take it away, Scott.

[02:33]Scott: Thanks, Peter. Oh, hi. A quick, for those that don't know here in the room, as we are recording the podcast live, I would just ask that you double-check your cell phones, that they are off. That's really, sort of, the only, kind of, item. If you need to get up and leave, that's fine. Come back. Also, there is going to be a reception right after we're done. And, kind of, near the end, I'm going to open it up for some audience Q&A. So, if you have some questions that you're really keen on asking, we'll set up a microphone here once we're done, and we'll encourage you to come ask those questions. We'll take a few questions, time permitting, and then, certainly, encourage you to bring those questions to the reception right after.

So, thanks again for coming and hanging out with us. And with that, we'll kick off. I am your host, Scott Gale. This is Owl Have You Know. And I'm here with Amy Dittmar.

Amy, welcome to the show.

[03:30]Amy: Thank you very much. Thrilled to be here.

[03:32]Scott: Thanks for coming out and spending a lovely Monday afternoon here at the Jones School. And I'm, kind of, in… as I've, sort of, reflected on our brief conversation and some of the things that we're going to come talk about, I see this a bit as get to know the office of the provost, get to know Amy, and get to understand, sort of, how you see the future unfolding.

And so, I, kind of, want to start a little bit with, Peter touched on it a little bit, but, sort of, like, the role of provost at a university. Can you just, sort of, help us understand what, kind of, the roles and responsibilities of that post are?

[04:05]Amy: Yeah, it always, kind of, confuses people, because then once you describe what a provost is, they usually say, “Well, then, what is a president in some senses?” Because you think of a university and you think of the academic enterprise, but there's a lot more to it. And so, I manage and oversee the academic enterprise. So, that's everything from the programs, the research, the faculty. They all, kind of, report up through me.

But then, there's other things that are my peers — the CFO or the vice president for finance. You know, I work with the athletic director. And so, we, kind of, collectively help run the university and, of course, guided by the vision.

So, that means everything from working with the deans to implement the vision at the schools, making sure that the student experience is what the students need to be able to thrive, working with the dean of undergrad and graduates, and just really, kind of, implementing some of those goals.

You know, if I had to come up with the best analogy, it's a little bit of, you know, CEO is the president and there's a couple COOs, if you would. And I guess, over the academic piece, I'm one of them.

[05:04]Scott: Love it. And there, we'll talk a little bit about this, but there's… I'd be curious if there is, kind of, a public versus private university spin to some of the roles and responsibilities associated with that, or is that largely…

[05:16]Amy: It's pretty largely the same. I mean, I think that some of the issues that come up, there's some nuances of the job that are different, but the way I just defined a provost is pretty consistent, if I was at the University of Michigan with 50,000 students or I was here with, you know, 9,000 students, yeah.

[05:33]Scott: Awesome. We heard, sort of, in your background, in your intro a long academic career. I'd love to just, sort of, go back a little bit further to, sort of, like, that moment in time when you decided that you wanted to go into academia. If we could, sort of, go back, if there's, sort of, like, a point where you decided that you wanted to take that step.

[05:57]Amy: Yeah. There were actually two points. One, I decided I wanted to go into academia, and then one when I realized what… in academia, what I meant by that. So, in high school, I wanted to be an English professor. I'm not really sure if I knew what that meant. It's I liked to read. I wrote some really bad poetry. And so, you know, I think that seemed like, kind of, a good job. It was more of the image of.

Once I got into school I, kind of, realized that I was actually a lot better at the quantitative side and the mathematical side. I ended up still doing a lot in English, but, kind of, navigated more towards econ and finance.

And then, at some point in my, in my courses, I realized by, you know, I was not the student that you had to encourage to come to the office hours. I was always in the office hours, not because I was trying to ask, you know, get an A, as much as I was just discussing different issues. And I, kind of, started to realize that the questions I was asking were a lot more about the whys and the hypotheses of how to get things. And they were different than what some of my colleagues were interested in going on applying.

So, that was probably the moment. I, kind of, remember sitting in a couple professors’ offices and having a discussion, and one or two of them saying, “Have you ever thought about a PhD and being a professor?” I didn't come from an academic background. So, a lot of times, people do. And what I mean by that is my parents, I mean, my dad went to college, but at, you know, at night at the local community college to while we were all born so, as opposed to my kids who grew up in an academic house. So, yeah.

[07:25]Scott: Yeah. No, that's really cool. I'd be curious, sort of, along your journey if there are any, sort of, like, individuals that particularly stand out as, sort of, influential in that…

[07:35]Amy: In getting there?

[07:36]Scott: In getting there.

[07:37]Amy: Yeah. I mean, I think, early on, I mean, it would be just my love of knowledge. There was a high school teacher, Greg Himeseth, who, he was the instructor for world history, but I think the more important thing was he just made you think. So, you know, no matter what idea or view you came up with, he would argue the other side. I mean, in today's polarized world, it would've been quite bloody in the classroom, I think.

But, you know, then he just really pushed you to think and to think outside the box. And so, I think that's where that kind of love of asking the questions and the, and the whys, kind of, came from. And of course, there were others along the way, but that's the first one in about 10th grade that I remember thinking that that's, you know…

And so, even in high school, the research projects were what I loved. So, I mean, to, kind of, digging into and understanding some of those things.

[08:27]Scott: Okay. That's fantastic. I'd be curious just to, sort of, kind of, up to your, kind of, post in Michigan, sort of, can you catch us up chronologically some of the things that, sort of, took place, kind of, through that and what were some of the inflection points that, kind of, got you there? I know that you and your husband both have a career in academia.

[08:46]Amy: So, we're skipping from, you know, I was 10th grade to…

[08:49]Scott: To, you're in academia, you wanted to be an English professor, made that pivot.

[08:58]Amy: Yep. And then, I… just somebody gave me some very good advice. And that was don't go straight to get your PhD. Go out and get a “real job.” And I did. And I think that the best thing that that taught me, besides giving me some real-world experience, was it just teaches you a work ethic that you just don't have in school to have that, kind of, you know, “9:00 to 5:00,” but really, you know, 7:00 to 8:00 job at a bank.

And so, that was… but it also took me about two months to realize that I wanted to go back to school. So, I worked for a couple of years, but that's… I think that would be one inflection point. Met my husband at the bank or somewhat through the bank. And we went off to grad school together, got married two months before grad school. So, I like to say my honeymoon was... He started a year after me, so I was in grad school, and he was unemployed. It was, you know, the best way to start a young marriage, yeah. But yeah, went to grad school. And then, after grad school, my first role went back to Indiana, which is where I got my undergrad. Didn't think I'd ever leave Indiana because it was my alma mater.

But Michigan came knocking. And it was just… it was a great opportunity for us. It was… the kids were about to start school, so it was the right time. And we moved to Michigan. So… and the kids moved out, and here I am. So…

[10:11]Scott: And so, starting as, sort of, a family, I like to call it, kind of, a startup family versus maybe a joint venture that, sort of, happens where you've… you're building up from the ground up through working through, kind of, early career, et cetera. And was just, as you, sort of, took on the opportunities there at Michigan, can you start to paint a picture for us, the decision making around, sort of, going from a teaching, kind of, role and background to more of an administrative-focused career?

[10:39]Amy: Yeah, I mean, some people plan out their careers. I think I, kind of, slipped into most of them. I loved my research. I loved my teaching. I was not, everyone used to always say, “Oh, you're going to be a dean,” because I was, kind of, put together, I guess. But I was like, “I'm never going to be a dean.” And I didn't think I wanted administration.

But then, the business school, as many business schools were doing, were in this real state of flux. They were trying to figure out what the portfolio should be in business, which was a very strategic decision. You know, they had the MBA, and should they add more masters? The MBA was having a little bit of shrinking problems. And so, the dean, kind of, came and asked me to take, kind of, a new role that would realign and think about the strategy.

So, I, kind of, saw it as a temporary gig, if you will. And so, I thought, “Well, that's… that would be, kind of, fun and interesting.” I, kind of, work on financial strategy. And I did that for a few years. And then, similarly, a conversation ended up getting me to central administration as well, kind of, talking about what the possibilities were, which I can elaborate, if you want.

[11:40]Scott: Yeah, please, we'd love to, sort of, kind of…

[11:42]Amy: Yeah. So, after a few years working in the, in the business school and in the dean's office and, kind of, realigning the portfolios, opening some new programs, closing some programs, which is much harder than opening programs, I started having conversations across campus with some people at Central, the provost in particular, that would come up around the fact that there's not a sustainable model for higher education in the United States, that, you know, that's the tuition going up, this is a state school, so you can think about it from all the things you read about.

And I just, kind of, volunteered, like, “Well, if there's ever a really cool committee or something that I could be on that would be investigating that, that's really aligned with my passions, as well as, you know, somewhat my background…” And it turns out that the position of running the budget for the University of Michigan, which is a faculty position, was open.

So, she asked me to lunch, offered me the job. And I was there for seven years doing that. So, yeah. So, it was… and I loved it. I loved seeing the whole university, as much as I loved being a part of the business school. For me, it was once I, kind of, you know, was out and looking across the different disciplines and working across all of the different disciplines and making everything from, you know, the music school to the engineering school, kind of, excellent and happen, it was, it was one of the most fulfilling jobs I've had, I'd say, since early research, you know. The first few years of research are really exciting, but that was, too.

[13:04]Scott: How did that, kind of, perspective and experience there shape, kind of, your stance and view on some of the key issues that are circling around the academia today, sort of, having that visibility, that early visibility, across a university?

[13:20]Amy: Yeah, a few ways. I mean, first off, and this, kind of, comes off with coming to Rice, is it was, you know, Michigan’s a place that it’s excellence across the board. And so, to me, it’s really important that I'm at a place that has excellence across the board. That, you know, it's not one school that's really wonderful and then everybody else is, kind of, living in the, in the shadow. And so, you know, Rice really had a commitment and has a commitment to excellence across all the disciplines. And that was important to me.

The other piece is the, I'd say, the mission piece. I mean, I think that, you know, Michigan's a public, so it's, kind of, part of who a public is, to have that mission of making a difference in the students' lives. And I think in privates, the same thing is there, but sometimes it can be, it can come out differently. But at Rice, I definitely found the same thing. It has a, had a social, a social good echoes that I thought seemed like a public almost. I mean, not, it's not a public, but the, but the commitment to that. So, that, I think, also shaped and seen all of the impact of… that you have on the students and really wanting to have that impact on society, more broadly. Yeah.

[14:31]Scott: Yeah. I wanted to double-click on, sort of, one more, kind of, feature of the, your experience there in Michigan was, sort of, the pandemic and some of the challenges with student mental health and, sort of… can you just, sort of, take us through some of the high points, low points, sort of, that experience?

[14:48]Amy: Yeah. Well, it's, you know, for everyone who managed a university or a company through this, you know, it, kind of, brings back a little bit of shock. I mean, the first memory was, you know, the day you decide to close down, right? And you're all 13 people in a room and you're figuring out, “What the heck are we going to do, you know, if the only emergency plan we had was if there was a snow day?” And that wasn't going to… and at that time, of course, we all thought, okay, a couple weeks, you know. So, it was a lot of uncertainty.

And I think that that was one of the big challenges in managing, was managing through that uncertainty. Higher ed hadn't done a lot of that. I mean, there'd been maybe a financial crisis, but it's a relatively, I mean, we're doing a lot of the same things that we did 200 years ago when it comes to educating and such. And so, changing that model on its head that quickly I think it taught all of us a lot of things.

You know, one was you had to all work together. There was no silos. You couldn't, you couldn't you couldn't, kind of, just stay in your school or stay in your lane. And so, I think there was this coming together that it was really transformative, both as a management, as a management position, but also at the university.

And then the other, because of that, is you start to, kind of, break down those silos. That's, kind of, what came from some of the mental health stuff you just referenced. You know, at a, at a, at a university, and Rice is a little different this way, but in most universities, you have, kind of, you know, you've got your student support over here and you've got your academics on the other side. And they're different places.

But to a student, they don't think of themselves as different. They don't walk out of the classroom and now they care about their, you know, their mental health. And they're… it's the same. It's all, it's all comes together and it impacts for them to thrive. And that became really transparent, not just because the students were struggling, but because we were working together in a way that hadn't been.

So, I launched, co-launched, with the dean of students a mental health initiative that really, kind of, looked at that holistic approach to really, not just student mental health, but also the factors that go into it — academic stress, you know, racism, concerns about sustainability — I mean, all the things that, kind of, impact a student, and to think about how you think about that student holistically to support them.

[16:55]Scott: Awesome. Well, I want to come back around to that. I think, as we, sort of, shift chronologically to your decision to come to Rice, and we'd just love to, you know, aside from maybe better weather at other times of the year…

[17:08]Amy: Not today

[17:09]Scott: Not here, not in August, but I don't know if Rice has a snow plan. We certainly have a weather-related plan.

[17:14]Amy: I think you have a hurricane plan, which probably is, yeah…

[17:16]Scott: We'd just love to know from your perspective, like, what... why Rice, as you were, sort of, making that decision?

[17:21]Amy: Yeah, I mean, I think it… I mean, you know, first and foremost, it was because it's a great university, right? So, when they came knocking, I was going to at least talk, right? So, I think I have to be honest that part of it was that. But, you know, to move my, you know, I've been there almost 20 years to move across the country and to think about it, there were a few things that stood out.

One was it was and is an incredibly exciting time here at Rice. I mean, the change that is going on, I am, I am only, I am one of many, many that have started in the last year. And the transformation of what Rice wants to achieve, I mean, which is already an excellent university and wants to, kind of, raise up and also think about how it's managed and run and really, and in order to be able to support that, that was really exciting to me.

So, a lot of that's, kind of, that's the president's vision. That's Reggie's vision. So, that was a piece of it. But it was also the community. I mean, I'd been at 19 years at University of Michigan. So, I knew how to get things done. I knew the people. I loved the people. So, if I was going to go someplace, I wanted someplace that had a community that I could become a part of.

And so, I really made an effort the first, well, really first year, but certainly first few months to, kind of, just get to know people so that I could. And the more I did, the more I confirmed, it's a great community, yeah.

[18:37]Scott: We were talking a little bit about this, sort of, in the, in the run up with some of the move in things happening this weekend and other things. I'd just love to know, sort of, in the… in your time here, so far, what are some of the things that stand out from a traditional standpoint?

[18:51]Amy: Yeah. I mean, so even though I say I came here somewhat because of the community, I don't think I was fully aware of the undergraduate, the way the undergraduate community, the college system that is here. And so, that's what you're referencing somewhat. I spent all this. If you don't know, the undergrads had move in on Sunday, and if you've never seen a Rice move in, then it's worth just driving around and seeing. And so, it really defines the community.

You know, kids are in the car, or I guess 18-year-olds, I guess, they're kids to me. And, you know, they know their names. They're running out. They're, like, “Amy, so glad you're here.” And I, you know, I've dropped two kids off of it at universities. And it was just, it's just this welcoming experience that, I think, from day one just puts students in a place where they don't have to worry about, “Am I going to meet somebody? Am I going to have friends?” And it has that kind of nurturing, supportive kind of network.

And so… and that's very indicative of what the overall community is at Rice. And it's just, I was seeing it through that lens. So, I can't say I came here for that because I didn't realize that when I came. I felt the community, but I didn't know those aspects. But that was, I think, one thing that really surprised me. Honestly, I wish my kids had had, you know, it would be a lot easier of a start to college if you had that kind of support network, yeah.

[20:01]Scott: I wanted to explore a little bit, just, sort of, how do you see, kind of, the future of Rice and the, sort of, the coming steps, how the strategy is unfolding? I think all of us that are close to the university appreciate that things are meaningfully different today than they were five years from now and wanted to just, kind of, explore when everything goes according to plan, it never does, but when things go according to plan, what is… what will be different about Rice? What will be the same on, sort of, a, kind of, a pick a horizon, five years… 

[20:30]Amy: Yeah, five to ten, that's what we both would talk about. I mean, I think that the first thing, I mean, as I've gone around and met people and I did, kind of, develop, started those relationships, I just mentioned, one of the things I asked people was, “What do you love about Rice, i.e., what do you want me to not screw up, in some senses, with the change?”

And so, a lot of that was around the care of the students and the, and the, and the commitment to the students, either the graduate students or the undergrads. There is just this incredibly deep… you know, you've got a connection with the faculty that you don't see in a lot of places.

So, I don't think that that won't change. I mean, so, you know, are we going to grow? Yes, but we can't grow so much that we can't keep that commitment, you know. And when I say we're going to grow, you know, undergrad’s already been in a phased in growth. Many of our graduate programs are growing.

Rice is just, it's an amazing institution. So, I think being able to educate and impact more individuals is part of the mission. But to continue to do that, how Rice is. So, we're not looking to, you know, to be thousands and thousands and thousands more. So, I think that's one piece.

And the other is around, as I said, excellence across the board. But I think there's some pockets that are just amazing excellence when it comes to, especially, research. And so, thinking about how we can enhance that even further. So, how we can take and build connections between schools. So, for instance, energy and the environment. So, we have some researchers that are, you know, humanities and social sciences and the hard sciences and business that are really studying how all of these things interact and bringing all of that together in Houston, which is the, kind of, energy capital.

There's just some real possibilities that haven't been fostered. I mean, people have been… they're great people here. They're doing great work. But it hasn't been fueled as much as it could have been. And so, I think, in this next phase, there's going to be even more.

And I think that's important, not just for society and the research, but also for the students, because more and more getting involved and understanding your impact of the, what you're studying in the classroom or the research you're working on with the professor is what students want to do, because in the roles that they're going to have, they're going to be deciding those and impacting those decisions and those challenges.

[22:46]Scott: Well, I've got, kind of, a question that's, sort of… Rice University, broadly, is a deep research institution. And we're here at McNair Hall. Majority of the people in the room are associated with the business school. There's an effort and a drive with the bringing now undergraduates to the business school and building more of that connective tissue between Rice Business and Rice University. And can you talk about, sort of, that… the balance that universities and, maybe, and Rice specifically, has to, sort of, wrestle with from a, sort of, focus on research versus a focus on business and commercialization and, sort of, the opportunities that that, sort of, presents for the student body, kind of, broadly, sort of, that intersection?

[23:35]Amy: Yeah. That, kind of, research teaching tension, is that what you, kind of, mean? Yeah, I think a lot of people think of that that way. Like, it's a zero-sum game. You know, if you give more in one way, you're going to give less another. And I really don't think that. That may have been true when I went to school, maybe. But I don't think it is anymore.

So, I'll, you know, I'll use the undergrad example. You know, a very easy one is, if you want to go to med school and you're 18 years old, you need experience researching in a lab. I mean, that was not the case 20 years ago, but it is. And so, the connection between research and teaching has become even closer.

And I think the same thing for the undergrads you mentioned in the business school. Understanding the whys. The questions I said, I guess maybe I just think this because this is how I thought. But when I was younger and I was asking those whys. That's what we want to teach them. We don't want to just teach them the finance tools, you know, go do your NPV, you know, put calculation.

It's really understanding the why, because the problems they're going to be solving are the problems that we don't even know what they are yet. And so, I think that one of the reason I think it is, kind of, a synergistic, the two, the two sides, is because it teaches you how to think about the problem that you haven't thought of yet.

And I think research is a way to do that. And so, the more you can, kind of, discuss that and bring that together… and, you know, by research, I have to be clear, I don't, I don't just mean in a lab research. I mean, there's a ton of amazing research being done here at Jones and in social sciences and humanities, all of that, as well as in the creative practices in architecture and music. All of that comes together to, kind of, help people better understand the problems and the challenges.

[25:12]Scott: While we're on this topic, I wanted to ask just, sort of, for those that are thinking about research, what kind of advice do you give to, sort of, a prospective student that's thinking about, kind of, a research career? What does one look for as they, sort of, self-select into that kind of experience?

[25:28]Amy: I think you have to be pretty independently motivated. I mean, I think, you know, it is one of these things that you have to, kind of, have that self-drive. And you… it can be… though it's… though there's a lot of team science out there, it is often something you're doing harshly on your own. So, I think you have to, kind of, think about that.

But I think that, if you're someone who likes to deeply think about a problem for long periods of time, it's incredibly rewarding. There's other ways you can do it and have a more applied aspect to it as well. So, I think that's one piece. And it's a long road. I mean, so my daughter's getting her PhD, so I've had these conversations at home, even. And, you know, I mean, you have to make tradeoffs of how long it's going to take to get that PhD, if that's the case. And there's other avenues to be able to follow your passions, if that's not what you, what you'd want to go through, yeah.

[26:21]Scott: I'm just, sort of, curious, like, the some of the challenges that academia broadly is facing from your view in 2023. You know, there are… with artificial intelligence and ChatGPT and, sort of, this shifting landscape of what education means and the benefit or role of a university degree, etc., like, what are, what are some of those challenges that are, sort of, top of mind? And how do you think that, sort of, Rice is positioned to, kind of, address, kind of, the definition of education into the future?

[26:57]Amy: Yeah. I mean, I think, to do it and to do it well, you have to keep evolving. And so, I think Rice is… it's a relatively young university, I mean, compared to many universities. And because of that, it's actually, I think, nimble. And this, kind of, looks to the future. And I think that's a beneficial.

When I was talking about what I… you know, the asking the questions, why, I think that's really the key, is setting kids and students… not kids, sorry. But up to be able to answer those questions.

And so, for instance, you brought up the ChatGPT. I mean, you can talk about it and say, oh, we need to squash it. We need to flop students. They're going to cheat. How are we going to do that? And to some extent, sometimes your work has to be your work. And there is some piece of that. But on the other side, these are the tools, these are the areas that they have to understand and navigate in a way that, in 10 years, is going to be even more different, you know.

And I think it's really just, kind of, teaching and being able to adapt and teaching them how to utilize that in the workplace or in their organizations. I mean, it's just an example. When I first started teaching, you know, business calculators were becoming really popular. And so, we lamented in finance that we, you know, “Oh, my gosh, we don't want students to be able to use these business calculators. You just put five buttons and the answer comes out.” And so, for the first few years, we actually didn't let it. You had to use the equations. Show your work. But a decade, that was not the case anymore. At some point, that tool is there. You embrace the tool, you know. And then, you, kind of, build on top of it.

And so, something like ChatGPT or a business calculator, for instance, just lets you, kind of, expand even further, what can you do? If you, if you use it for a shortcut and you stop asking the whys, it's not a good thing. But if you can, kind of, build from that, I think it sets the students up even further to go in the future and thrive.

[28:45]Scott: The other, sort of, key focus areas that you'd like to touch on for the next, kind of, couple of years, what are, what do you anticipate, sort of, spending most of your time?

[28:54]Amy: Well, the other piece is faculty hiring. So, because Rice is going to be growing a bit, it's grown a little bit in its undergrad, it's growing in its graduates, we have a plan to hire about 200 new faculty. So, Rice has, you know, about 500 to 600 tenure track and around 700 to 800 FTEs, if you can include the non-tenure track as well. So, 200 is a big, a big number.

And so, thinking about what that means, it's not just, kind of, adding where we are now, but really thinking about where are those places for comparative advantage. Where are the questions of the future, AI? You know, where are the things that Rice is really well-poised to do amazing work in, or maybe energy and sustainability? What are the big problems of today? Equity issues across, you know, many dimensions, everything from health to wealth.

And so, you know, I think, as we think about, those faculty, we want to think about shaping the university in ways that we can address and be set up to address those problems. So, that's probably one of the most exciting, because, you know, I mean, that's a… transforming the who the university is in the, in that way and create and bringing in faculty that'll help that cross disciplinary work that I mentioned before is a real opportunity.

[30:11]Scott: It's really exciting. Amy, we're thrilled that you're here, not only here in the room, but here at Rice.

[30:17]Amy: I'm thrilled to be here.

[30:17]Scott: I think it's the… there's a, really, just an incredible time in Rice's history to be here. And we're all anxious to see how that's going to impact the Jones School, broadly, but also, Rice, sort of, universally. And so, thank you for coming and spending a little bit of time with us.

[30:34]Amy: Yeah, thrilled to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

[30:36]Scott: I would like to, sort of, pause now and open up for some audience questions, if we could go ahead and do that.

[30:45]Amy: Great.

[30:45]Scott: All right, first question.

[30:46]Jeffrey: So, Jeffrey Likings. So, how do we get to play a role and connect the fabric? Because what we're working on, people say, well that's too big. But I also was here at the Jones Graduate School and was one of the members of the first cohort, Global Energy Leadership Program. And so, we want to blend all of that, give Rice the framework, but we also want to connect Rice to Houston, to Prairie View, to Texas A&M, and to the wider world.

[31:19]Amy: Yeah. Well, I think much of that are the same goals that we have. I mean, when it comes to, you know, you're talking about, kind of, a connection with other partnerships in Houston, as well as industry, for lack of a better word, and so, I think. making that connection… you mentioned Paul Cherukuri, our vice president for innovation. That role was created, essentially, to, kind of, build those bridges, be it in the expansion that we're talking about over in the Ion or bringing people together.

And, you know, I, kind of, said energy and the environment, but, you know, really, that's going to be a broad initiative that we're launching that would include sustainability. I mean, water is, you know, people say, if we're going to have another world war someday, it's probably going to be over water. So, I completely agree with you. It's a, it's a huge issue.

And so, in fact, even today, I heard a research initiative that was really talking about that. So, I think, you know, as we build… and many of the faculty we're hiring are less about, “Hey, let's hire somebody in X department,” and it's more, “Let's hire somebody who's going to be studying sustainability in water,” and it doesn't matter what department. So, I think it will help facilitate much of what you're talking about.

[32:23]Jeffrey: Thank you very much for your time.

[32:30]Randy: Hi, I'm Randy Batsell, one of your emeritus faculty.

[32:33]Amy: Hi.

[32:33]Randy: I wanted to ask a question that allowed you to talk about your research. So, when you were doing that, what was the most exciting discovery, the most important contribution that you did that made such a big difference?

[32:44]Amy: Oh, gosh. So, probably, one of the things that I found the most impactful would been towards… it was, I won't say towards the end of my research, but it was towards the later stages when I started to get more into gender economics.

And so, there was a large movement across… well, across the world, but in Europe, in particular. There was a bit of a study on how to do that, and it was done through quotas. And whereas, in the United States, in order to be able to get more gender diversity on boards, it was done more through, I'd say exposure or, kind of, showing the data. So, I’m making the data.

So, the project that I did that was, I think, very impactful was really looking at the impact of those, of those quotas in one country, which was Norway, and what… and how successful it was. And there were many follow-on papers that were not mine that, kind of, looked at, you know, I thought of it as, you know, “Are you breaking the, kind of, breaking the glass ceiling, if you will, from the top? It was still about boards. And does that, in long term, help, you know, women rise up even further?”
 

And so, that I think was just a burgeoning start of a research. And so, I think that was, and I was in the earlier stages and many, I'll credit the people that came after me because I got into administration. But it's just the bringing in that diversity into the boardroom, into the corporate ranks was something that, if I, if when I ever go back to research, that would be one of the things I would pick up on. Yeah.

[34:13]Randy: Thank you.

[34:15]Andrew: Good evening. My name is Andrew Ward. I am a first-year student or incoming first-year student, class of 2025. So, I too am a Michigan native. We were at the University of Michigan at around the same time. Houston weather is a lot different than Michigan, Texas in general.

[34:32]Amy: It is.

[34:34]Andrew: So, my question is centered around the community, the greater Houston community, the Rice community. The fabric of Houston and Rice is completely different than Ann Arbor. So, I'm just wondering, as far as co-curricular learning, experiential learning that can be applied in the classroom for business school students, also, undergraduate students, do you envision or have any thoughts as far as what plans could look like for certain learning that could take place outside of the classroom for students that would contribute to the work that's going on in the greater Houston area, if there's anything that's unique to the Rice Business School or the Greater Houston area, similar to the work that's going on, going on in the Metro Detroit area.

[35:33]Amy: Yeah, no, I think that's… so, first off, yes, Michigan and Texas are very, very different. So, certainly weather-wise, but also especially Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor is, kind of, a... it's a little bubble, right? It's a college town. And so, I mean, it has some connection to the greater Detroit area, but not to the, to the extent of being here in Houston.

And so, I think some of the advantages are this incredibly diverse, economically, some people very economically challenged, others very not economically challenged. So, I think a lot of the issues that are incredibly important in all of society, if you could solve them in Houston or you could solve them in Texas, you would solve them nationally and maybe internationally as well.

And so, I'm a, I'm a big believer in engaged learning. When I was, one of the things that is quintessential of the, of the Michigan business school, but you all should be here, Rice is much better, but is a required, kind of, six-week project where you're, kind of, embedded into a problem and thinking about how to solve that.

And so, I ran that for a long time. And I do, I saw the impact it had on the students, kind of, applying it. And so, there's opportunities for that here at Jones as well. I don't think it's required here, but it's… there's certainly opportunities. And so, finding ways to do that with this, kind of, making an impact in Houston.

So, for instance, Houston has one of the largest unbanked or underbanked communities in the country, which means, you know, people are not having access to funds. We have the Kinder Institute here and the Baker Institute that are both well-steeped in those issues. And so, thinking about partnerships between some students at Jones and maybe Baker and Kinder in order to be able to look at some of that, those are really exciting opportunities.

And I could say the same around whatever your passion would be around education. And so, I think, and I love the idea of business education, addressing the inequities that are out there and taking the tools that you learn and the way you think in business in order to be able to solve that. It's not what everyone always thinks of as business, but I think this generation, and I'll put you in that, you're younger than me, but is thinking in that way of the impact. So, yeah. But I don't want to propose a new course or anything, because I'm not teaching these days and Peter's standing right behind you, but yeah.

[37:52]Andrew: Thank you.

[37:53]Amy: Welcome.

[37:56]Audience: Amy, I was listening and I had a question. I thought, of course, I don't need to introduce myself. You come to us with fresher eyes than many of us have about Rice. And you come from, you know, viewers in Michigan is known for that breadth and excellence and so much skill. When I think about Rice, I think about all the things we could do to, sort of, expand awareness and grow the reputation of the university. And speaking as someone who spent the majority of your career outside but now can be inside, do you have any thoughts or things you would tell us that we need to amplify in our messaging outwardly to, sort of, raise the recognition of what's great about Rice and maybe get other academics and other folks around the country to look at us and see us in a clearer way than they do now?

[38:41]Amy: Yeah. No, I think that's an important point. I think one part is actually just accepting that the rest of the world may not know how great Rice is. I think that's a good starting point. You may have even heard me say, because we talk a fair amount this story, but, you know, when I came, when I said I was moving to Rice, I remember telling somebody at Michigan, and they went, “Oh, that's good.” Like, I could tell they weren't really sure, like, where's Rice? And then, two days later, they came back and they said, “Oh, my gosh, I've got to tell… my daughter's got to look at that school. We're getting ready to do college. It's great.”

I move here and I meet my neighbor and I tell them I'm the provost at Rice. And she literally jokingly curtsied because… and I mean it's just because that is how Rice is viewed, but it's not the way it's viewed everywhere. And so, I think there is a huge amount of getting it out there. And, you know, Michigan used to always say that they had Midwestern modesty. I'm not sure that that's true. But Rice has a little bit of that as well. And so, I think, just getting that name out there. And, of course, you know, a lot of people have different views of Texas and Houston, so you have to, kind of, overcome that as you do it.

But a lot of it is what's already happening here and just, kind of, living up to those expectations, kind of, you know, setting the bar high, and then making those connections. But it means, kind of, leaving this area, you know, going out and, you know, you know, going out and talking to the business school deans across the country and so that they know who you are, so, the provost in the AAU know who I am and, you know, Reggie having a national platform so that people take notice. And I think that's going to be key.

[40:10]Audience: Perfect. Thank you very much.

[40:13]Scott: All right. I don't know if… Amy, you've got the mic. If you want to, if you've got any, if you've got any closing thoughts or comments, I don't want to put the, put you, sort of, any pressure on you. You don't have to, but if you've got any closing thoughts or comments before we wrap up.

[40:27]Amy: Yeah. Well, I mean, since I'm sitting in the business school, I guess, I'll, kind of, wrap up a little bit with that. I mean, one of the things I talked a lot about cross discipline and building the connections or working out in Houston and that one of the last questions, and I think one of the things I am excited about, and you mentioned earlier having undergrads as a part of the business school, is the Jones School even more being connected to the rest of the university.

I think that's one of the things that having undergrads will do just naturally because they navigate the campus. And so, I think that makes people have that connection. But the same thing with the MBAs and the others is, kind of, thinking about where are there opportunities for joint projects and joint, because I think that all business schools, I don't, you know, have a lot… sometimes people just joke at Michigan that there was a moat around the Ross School of Business, and there wasn't. And we worked across a lot of areas, but, you know, I think that just people don't always work across those institutions as much.

And so, I think the more opportunities there are for the Jones students to interact with Houston, but also just the community here at Rice, more broadly, is a, is a great opportunity, not just for Jones, but for everyone else as well. Yeah.

[41:37]Scott: That's a great way to close. Thanks again for coming in.

[41:40]Amy: Thank you. Thanks everyone for coming.

[41:44]Scott: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Scott Gale, and Maya Pomroy.