[00:00]Maya Pomroy: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Flight Path series, where guests share their career journeys and stories of the Rice connections that got them where they are.

On today's episode of Owl Have You Know, we catch up with Emmanuel Yimfor, a finance professor at Columbia Business School. We'll explore his path, from earning a Ph.D. at Rice to teaching at some of the top business schools in the country, what drew him to entrepreneurial finance, and the surprising insights from his research on venture capital, alumni networks, and the hidden friction that shapes who gets funded and who doesn't. We'll also discuss the lessons from Rice that still guide him today and some exciting ventures of his own that he's launching to promote equity to all innovators, regardless of geography.

Just a quick note that, halfway through the recording, my Wi-Fi staged a little rebellion and I had to switch to my phone to keep the conversation going. The audio quality might dip just a little bit, but trust me, Emmanuel’s insights are worth sticking around for. Now, let’s dive in.

Go, Owls, even though you're in New York. Welcome to the program.

[01:15]Emmanuel Yimfor: Well, thank you so much for having me, Maya. It's an honor to, you know, be doing this.

[01:19]Maya Pomroy: So, your research and expertise centers on entrepreneurial finance, diversity, and private capital markets. And specifically, your area of focus is examining gender and racial gaps and VC funding, board representation, and private equity fundraising. What was it about this specific topic that drew you to it?

[01:45]Emmanuel Yimfor: Absolutely. That's a great question. So, if I could zoom out a little bit, my research is really about how private markets function and who gets access to funding. Private markets have produced some of the most spectacular companies that have done things that have completely changed our lives. And so, my research is trying to understand, could they do even better, right?

[02:06]Maya Pomroy: Right.

[02:06]Emmanuel Yimfor: And so, I was really struck, first of all, by how little research was being done on private markets when I was, like, doing a Ph.D. program and hearing so much about public markets. And I was really driven to understand more about this opaque section of the market that, you know, was just not being studied because of a lack of available data.

And so, one of the things that I was able to do was, like, create a lot of data sets that allowed us to study the distribution of private markets funding. So, if you start off from a base and that base assumption is, you know, talent is evenly distributed in the population, irrespective of what gender or what race you are, then it follows that, when you look at the distribution of people getting capital in private markets, and that distribution differs substantially from the base distribution of talent that you would expect, it naturally gives rise to thinking more about whether this capital is being allocated in the most efficient way possible.

And so, that's what naturally gave rise to trying to understand how private markets funding is distributed by race, by gender, and how the highest levels of corporate governance, which is the board, whether that reflects the racial and gender representation that we see in the economy, at the base of all of this is a very basic tenet of finance, which is we want capital to be allocated to its most productive uses.

[03:30]Maya Pomroy: Efficiency.

[03:31]Emmanuel Yimfor: Efficiency, exactly. And so, the first step is understanding how capital is being allocated. Really nothing controversial there. And then the second step is understanding, given the distribution that we see, what are some potential reasons that might lead to an allocation that we would not expect, if you start off again with this base assumption that capital is evenly distributed in the population?

[03:55]Maya Pomroy: So, as I was reading some of your research, I started thinking, it's not what you know, it's who you know, right? And so, even in MBA programs, there are significantly more men than there are women, and there are significantly more men in private equity and venture capital. I mean, there just are. That's just a fact. So, as I was thinking about this, I was wondering, is it just based on the distribution of who is in this field and who is in this industry? Or is it something deeper than that?

[04:30]Emmanuel Yimfor: Oh, that's an excellent insight. If you think about, you know, the persistence, like, given that we started off with a base representation of, you know, just using your example, men and women in the private capital space, and then you think about, say, even how deal sourcing works, which is, you know…

[04:48]Maya Pomroy: On the golf course or something like that.

[04:50]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah. Network, you know. What kind of opportunities are available? What kind of deals are you seeing? You're asking your investment banker friend, which is how a lot of these private equity deals are sourced. Then, you can easily see how the base representation is very sticky. To be sure, there has been progress over time, but it’s very much what you described, which is, who do you know, right? And so, that base representation can be very sticky and very hard to change, given the nature of private markets.

One piece of data that this reminds me of is, looking at founders that are funded by, say, accelerators, accelerators have a clear application process. So, they have an “Apply here” button on their website where you can click and you could submit your pitch deck, and then you would have an interview.

[05:38]Maya Pomroy: Like the Y Combinator, those sorts of things.

[05:40]Emmanuel Yimfor: Exactly. And then they interview you and just have much higher levels of representation relative to other venture capital funds where there is no clear application process.

And if you think about why that is, it, kind of, makes sense, right? Because, as a founder, you need to network and you need to be aggressive and, like, just be entrepreneurial in terms of, like, getting your business off the ground. And so, it makes sense, actually, to say, “Look, if you are entrepreneurial enough to find me and get access to me as a partner, then maybe you're the kind of person that I want to fund.” That would be great if the network, access to the network, was evenly distributed. What you're doing there is, like, disadvantaging some people who might not have this kind of good access to the network to reach you. And then that would drive this kind of persistence that we see in the representation of the people currently in the industry who drive who get funded.

They fund some really good ideas, but it always begs the question, could we be doing even better with how private market capital is allocated, if we were to think a little bit more closely about who might be disadvantaged by this very network-based business, right? So, one of the barriers to, you know, just having the industry agreeing to, “Let's just have an ‘Apply here’ button for everyone to make sure everyone can have access to us and we can evaluate everyone on the level playing field,” ideas like that.

[07:07]Maya Pomroy: So, that would be a whole lot of people. How do you evaluate that, then?

[07:11]Emmanuel Yimfor: Oh, that is where, essentially, the challenge comes in. The good news is that we have a lot of automated tools that can help you these days with the rise of artificial intelligence.

[07:20]Maya Pomroy: AI?

[07:21]Emmanuel Yimfor: Exactly. That can help you weed through a lot of applications to pick up. So, for example, if you're a biotech fund and that's what you told your limited partners you are going to be investing in, chances are you're not going to invest in a B2B business that's located in a state where you've never done business. And so, you can imagine that a lot of software can help you trim around the edges like that and then allow you a much wider funnel of potential deals to evaluate, especially for the types of founders that you don't think would be able to get to you as easily, just based on their network.

[07:55]Maya Pomroy: Sort of, like applying to, I don't know, Columbia Business School where you can sift through those applications faster.

[08:02]Emmanuel Yimfor: That's a perfect analogy, you know. Like, schools have done it right? Like, they let everybody apply and define, like, just the right criteria to be able to sift through the applications, conduct follow-on interviews, and then let in an entering… very talented entering class, if I might say, in a little bit of self-promotion for Columbia.

[08:20]Maya Pomroy: Yeah, a little bit. No, but we're going to get to Rice, too, because we're going to be… I want to talk to you about Rice as well.

[08:26]Emmanuel Yimfor: Absolutely, yeah.

[08:27]Maya Pomroy: So, you know, you've got quite a phenomenal academic background. And when you were growing up, did you always want to be in finance? Or, was it something that was in your family? Or, what drew you to it?

[08:41]Emmanuel Yimfor: That's an excellent question. I'm not sure the answer is going to be very inspiring, but it's the truth. A series of very fortuitous circumstances. A series of just pure random luck. So, what happened was, I had graduated, the youth unemployment rate in Cameroon is very high, but I got a job with a mobile telecommunications network, like the AT&T of Cameroon. You know, I was comfortable, you know, ready to get married, a 21-year-old, ready to take on the world. And my mom was like, you know, “This cannot be the extent of your dreams.”

[09:13]Maya Pomroy: Smart mom.

[09:14]Emmanuel Yimfor: You have to dream a little bit bigger. And so, I said, “Sure. What do you want me to do?” She's like, “You figure it out, but just try to explore the world more.” And so, I go on the internet, I kid you not, “Universities, America, Canada.” Guess what pops up? I don't know how good their search engine optimization was at the time, but Kent State University and then, Virginia University, something, something, you know. But those are the two schools I applied to because they were the first two, and the internet was really slow. And so, I applied there, got into both of them, and then ended up going to Kent State University.

[09:49]Maya Pomroy: Did you get married?

[09:51]Emmanuel Yimfor: I did not. I did not. You know, she didn't have quite the same dreams as my mom. And so, she stayed back home and moved on.

[09:59]Maya Pomroy: In Cameroon, yeah.

[10:00]Emmanuel Yimfor: In Cameroon. So, I got here, Kent State University. And again, the Ph.D. thing was not even on my radar. My professors…

[10:07]Maya Pomroy: So, that was the first time in the U.S., or had you traveled here before?

[10:09]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yep, first time after undergrad, first time in the U.S., went to a master's program at Kent State University. It was an MBA.

[10:18]Maya Pomroy: Was that a culture shock for you? A little bit?

[10:21]Emmanuel Yimfor: Oh, my goodness. Please, don't even get me started. So, what is my best story? There are too many, but one of the best ones is that it was snowing outside and I did not have gloves to put on. And so, I thought, you know, it's just a short one-mile walk. Not one kilometer. One mile.

[10:40]Maya Pomroy: A mile, that's longer.

[10:42]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah, that’s longer. And so, I got back and my hands were so frostbitten. Like, I called my mom to say, like, “If this is what you expected me to achieve here, mission accomplished, because this is terrible,” you know. And, of course, that was easy to fix because she listened to me until I got to the end of my story, and she's like, you know, “You should probably buy gloves.”

[11:07]Maya Pomroy: Buy some gloves.

[11:09]Emmanuel Yimfor: Buy gloves. So, a huge culture shock, just to be honest. And then, at Kent State, if I can be so shameless as to, like, call them out, Michael Ellis, Emmanuel Dechenaux, those two people kept suggesting a Ph.D. program to me. Like, you know, “You should really think about doing a Ph.D. program.” The dream was to do a Ph.D. program in macroeconomics at the University of Minnesota.

[11:32]Maya Pomroy: Even colder.

[11:33]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yes, even colder. But back then, I had gotten more used to the weather. And so, through their nudges, I got admission to go to the University of Minnesota to do macroeconomics. But then, that's the key twist. I had a friend from grad school from Bangladesh who kept saying, like, you know, “The way you explain things and the way you relate to people, you don't sound like a typical economist in an econ department. You should probably think about a business school because I can understand what you're saying.”

[12:04]Maya Pomroy: Yeah, you're not talking in statistical regressions.

[12:07]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah, exactly. And so, I was like, “I have a very limited application budget.” He's like, “Sure. Why don't we find three or four schools where the likelihood that it would admit you is very high?” And so, I kid you not, we went from website to website. I don't know if I can say this, but again, I said I'm going to be blunt, looking for whether there was anybody that looked like me on the website. And so, the goal was that, if there was somebody who looked like me, then the chances that I would be admitted would be high, because in his words, I was the smartest person who looked like me that he knew.

So, that's what happened. And so, at Rice, they had admitted another Ph.D. student from Cameroon, Alberto [unintelligible 12:47], at the University of British Columbia. So, that's what led me to apply to Rice, believe it or not.

[12:53]Maya Pomroy: So, can you tell me about your time at Rice and its culture and the support that you've been given from Rice Business? You received your Ph.D. five years ago, so you've had some time to reflect on that experience. And good gracious, you got that Ph.D. right around the time that COVID started, right?

[13:13]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah. I've always had this, you know, little bit of regret that I wasn't able to, like, wear my robe and walk like everybody else. I was very much looking forward to the Ph.D. But back to Rice, Rice was… the short answer is just incredible, right? Like, I still remember, they had this open-door policy, a lot of the professors there, where you could just have an idea and walk into a professor's office whenever. So, you do not need to, like, make an appointment with them. If the door was open, they made it.

[13:43]Maya Pomroy: So, walk on in.

[13:44]Emmanuel Yimfor: Knock and walk on in. And I just pitched them so many ideas over the years, you know. I had a portfolio approach to advice, so I would pitch Maya an idea and then I would take whatever feedback she had, and then I would spend maybe 10…

[13:58]Maya Pomroy: You tweak it.

[13:59]Emmanuel Yimfor: Refining it, and then I'll go to the next professor-

[14:03]Maya Pomroy: That's brilliant.

[14:04]Emmanuel Yimfor: … and pitch them a refined version, and then they would have one or two suggestions for me. And then I'll tweak it in 20 minutes, and then I'll go to the next one. And so, by the time I pick this with four or five people during the day, the idea that I started off with looked very different. And I don't think that would've been really possible at other places because, like, you know, other places do a good job supporting their Ph.D. students but they don't quite have that, like, same open door policy that Rice had. And the faculty made a really intentional decision to have this open door policy to support their students. And I think that benefited me enormously.

The dedication, James Weston, Alex Butler, Alan Crane, their dedication just to supporting the Ph.D. students, Alex Butler reading the papers over and over again and providing feedback. You know, I still remember all of his bullet points for what makes a good paper, like, what do you do? Why is it important? Why should we believe you? All those things, he just repeated them so often that they stuck even this many years later. Whenever I'm reading a paper for a referee reporter, I'm writing a paper myself, those questions are the first things that pop up. That's just how deep and how high-quality the instruction at Rice was. I just have nothing but praise for my experience there at the Jones School of Business. It's one that, you know, I'm incredibly proud of.

[15:24]Maya Pomroy: The caliber of the folks that are there, I'll agree with you, because, you know, when I was there for my Executive MBA, it was the same — you can go in and see a professor and you can bounce ideas off of them, and they're so accessible. And, you know, a lot of places aren't like that. And Rice really does stand out, where what they really want to do is create this culture and this network. And, you know, dovetailing off of network and alumni networks, that's also something that you study and how alumni networks and those connections, sort of, interplay with funding and VC and everything else.

So, you did do a fascinating study on how those alumni networks and social movements affect who gets funding. Can you talk to me about that specific study that you did?

[16:12]Emmanuel Yimfor: Oh, absolutely. So, again, like, backing up again, my research agenda is really, like, how do private markets function and who gets access to funding? So, we started off with race and gender. It's very easy to imagine another dimension that segments private capital markets, which is, where did you go to school?

And so, the natural anecdote is, like, you know, a lot of people who get venture capital funding are from Stanford or from Harvard. And so, in the spirit of, again, like, repeating this very basic tenant, essentially, the goal of finance research is you want capital to be allocated to its most productive uses. And so, you're constantly trying to understand, how might capital be allocated inefficiently? And so, what do we do to improve that process?

And so, then if you take that overarching framework and you come down to thinking about alumni networks, then a hypothesis is immediately obvious. Number one, to what extent is the allocation of capital in private markets a function of where you went to school? So, we know that it is, but the question is, to what extent? Number two, is this efficient or inefficient? So, just to get to the heart of the empirical question here, if Maya decides to fund Emmanuel, is she funding Emmanuel because she was Emmanuel's classmate and has some extra information about how good of a founder Emmanuel is? Because if that's the case, then we would expect that, on average, he’s going to be putting the money towards good use. So, Emmanuel is going to do well as a startup founder funded by Maya.

[17:43]Maya Pomroy: And also, Maya knows where Emmanuel lives, so he better.

[17:48]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah, absolutely. You know, on the other hand, though, if Maya is having a conversation with Emmanuel about his startup and the whole conversation is about the good old days of Rice and, you know, sports at Rice and not really about the startup and she ends up investing in Emmanuel just because she feels this natural affinity towards him, that's, like, inefficient capital allocation. And so, what you would expect is that, on average, those deals are going to perform worse.

And so, like, it's not clear which way it goes without really, like, assembling a large data set to really study this question. And so, what we do is, like, a very comprehensive data effort. We look at two decades of data. We map using, like, LinkedIn profiles and a lot of data — what schools each founder attended, what schools each partner attended, when they attended those schools. And then we track the outcomes of those deals. Did the startups go public? Were they acquired? Did the startups fail?

And so, we have this, like, the base headline finding is, number one, one in three deals in the venture capital market are between a founder and a partner who attended the same school. 

[18:57]Maya Pomroy: One in three.

[18:58]Emmanuel Yimfor: One in three, that is much larger than anything I was expecting. Again, like anything I was expecting. Let me come back to this thing about expectations. What are my expectations built off of? How do VCs get compensated? They get compensated based on how well their fund performs. They get a 20% tariff. And so, if they make $100, they get 20. Those are high-powered incentives to do the right thing, to be as efficient as possible with the capital you are allocating so that you can take home as large of a paycheck as possible.

So, contrast that to, say, a mutual fund manager, for example, that, you know, makes small money. The larger the amount of money they manage is, it's just very different. And so, VC is not a space where you would think there will be much room for this. But again, back to the nature of the way deals are sourced. If you're sourcing a deal or you don't have an “Apply here” button on your website, then, of course, you're going to get a lot of founders that are, kind of, in your network. But who's in your network? People that you went to school with.

And so, then, that leads us to the second main finding, which is, to my surprise, these investments, on average, are not based on affinity. On average, these investments perform well, which is very consistent with there being some kind of information benefits between founders and partners that attended the same alma mater.

[20:21]Maya Pomroy: Yeah. So, that's also something that, you know… because Rice is also known as the number one entrepreneurial school in the country. And I think a lot of it does have to do with the network and the access to, you know, like the Lilie Lab and everything like that, where you can go and you can meet people face-to-face and they can give you, not just a pitch deck, because, you know, if you don't know them, then they send you a pitch deck and they give you a data room link and you go in and you're, like, sifting through all this stuff and you're like, I don't know. But if it's somebody that you know at Lilie Lab that's like, “Hey.” I'll give an example of someone that I recently met that just launched this phenomenal shoe line, and he's a runner like you. And we'll talk about that, too, because I know that you're a runner and I'm a runner as well, and you just ran a marathon. But just being able to talk to him and feeling the product and I was like, you know, “Can I try this on?” And I had put it on my foot and I was like, “How are these different from, like, Hoka’s or, you know, Adidas or whatever.” And so, that sort of intimacy, so to speak, is something that, you know, when you know somebody and you see their excitement in person, and you can look at all the analytics, there’s stuff you can't measure, right?

[21:30]Emmanuel Yimfor: Exactly.

[21:30]Maya Pomroy: It's that secret sauce that you just can't measure.

[21:34]Emmanuel Yimfor: Secret sauce that makes it hard. To me, this is why, like, you know, empirical work is so exciting to me, because then you're like a little bit of a police detective. So, you take a little bit of this, like, thing that feels hard to measure, and then you can create a hypothesis to link it to, like, the eventual outcomes, to the extent that that thing that's hard to measure is something that's leading to more efficient capital allocation. Then, on average, you know, this feeling that you get about founders that are from the same alma mater should lead to good things, as opposed to leading to bad things. And so, you know, that's exactly the right spirit of how to think about the work.

[22:07]Maya Pomroy: And so, one of your studies, if we're going to talk about, you know, the hard data, shows how algorithms that predict race can actually distort the picture when it comes to fairness in lending. I'm really curious about that, you know, algorithm that you studied. Can you talk to me about that one?

[22:24]Emmanuel Yimfor: 100%. Again, backing up to, how do private markets function and who gets access to capital. When I was embarking on this and I wanted to look at the dimension of race, to what extent are there racial disparities in who's getting access to funding, and how do the deals that minority founders, you know, the startups that are created by minority founders that raise funding, how do the startups perform? One immediate friction that I ran into is that there wasn't a database that reports what the race of founders were.

And so, of course, I turned the literature to read what has been done before. And I noticed that the primary way that they're measuring race, and even this is something that the government used as a way to measure race, was that they would use the likelihood that you're black or Hispanic based on your last name or they would use your geography. And so, I thought, “That seems odd, right? I'm an assistant professor of finance, and so I’m fortunate enough to live in a pretty good zip code. I think my zip code is majority white. The name Yimfor, I'm not sure to what extent I would associate that with a black founder. Let me try it.” So, I went and I put my name in the algorithms. It gave me almost an 80% probability of being white. And I was like…

[23:42]Maya Pomroy: Of being white based on your zip code?

[23:44]Emmanuel Yimfor: Based on my name and my zip code.

[23:46]Maya Pomroy: Your name and your zip code, wow.

[23:47]Emmanuel Yimfor: And I was like, “This is, kind of, odd.” And, like, this is something that's used for… so, like, the regulators, when they're trying to think about which lenders are not lending fairly to certain groups, part of the way they would evaluate this, too, is by using the lenders portfolio and using this algorithm to infer race, especially for small business lending.

And so, I thought, “You know what? Let's think about this a little bit more carefully.” And so, what I did was I used publicly available images of lots and lots of founders, from, like, you know, the paycheck, the PPP program because the data was made widely available. So, I collected a lot of images and then developed an algorithm that takes in the image and the name to predict race.

And so, I was able to validate this. I'm going to spare you a lot of the details, but I was able to validate that this works as a measure of perceived race. Let me tell you a little bit about perceived race. So, the perceived race is, how do other people see you as opposed to what you identify as? So, there was an existing data set that said, “What is your race?” And then people reported their race. And then they asked a lot of people, “Given this person's picture, what do you perceive their race to be?” And so, then we could take those same pictures, plug it into our algorithm, get a measure of race, and show that our measure is much closer to how other people see, right?

And so, with that, we're able to say, “Okay, where does this algorithm of using names and location, where does it fall short? Where do we see this error rate being high?” So, when I say error, you have to have some measure of ground truth. And then, based on the ground truth, you can apply the government algorithm that uses this, you know, last name and zip codes. And then you can look at the two. Where did they differ? That's specifically what I mean by error.

And so, what we showed was that, look, the errors are especially high, so, error meaning the algorithm predicts that you are white when you are not, when you are in fact black, the errors are much larger, especially for black borrowers that live in affluent zip codes. And you would imagine that these are especially the types of black borrowers with higher credit scores, but they don't get this regulatory advantage because the regulators are trying to look at the proportion of black borrowers that you are lending to. But the regulation is going to miss the classification of black borrowers, especially when they live in high-income neighborhoods.

And so, there's an interesting tension in that, if a lender is lending to a black borrower living in a high-income neighborhood, the lender doesn't get any regulatory credit for doing that. And so, what we find is this, like, real tension, which is number one, we can quantify how large the errors are, again, errors meaning the difference between how we're predicting race, which is again using images, and how the regulators are predicting race, which is using last names and geography. So, if you believe that our measure is closer to the truth, and that's something that we show in the paper, then we want to understand what the implications are of using our measure as opposed to using the measure that the regulators currently use.

And so, we find this interesting tension. Number one, if you use our measure, you're going to increase lending to more black borrowers, to be specific, especially to these higher-income black borrowers whose zip code is causing you to misclassify them. But then it's not just good. There's also a little bit of this tension, which is, you would increase lending towards more black borrowers, but you would also increase inequality.

So, it takes a little bit to think about it, but think about it in the sense that, in the current regulations, you get regulatory credit for lending to lower-income black borrowers, right? And so, if you were to use, say, self-identified race or our measure of race, sure, that's going to lead you to make fewer of these errors, which misclassify higher income black borrowers as non-black. But then, at the same time, they will get a lot more of the loans because, you know, the higher the income, then the likelihood of repayment is much higher, which would increase within group inequality. So, within black borrowers, the inequality is going to increase.

And so, that's what that paper was about. That paper was not just about, like, you know, thinking about the regulatory pitfalls of using this imputed measure of race. But it was also, kind of, a foundational paper for a lot of what I've done in the papers that I've written, which is, like, look, at the foundation of trying to understand how private markets function and who's getting access to capital, you have to be able to measure things correctly to even have a conversation, right, you know.

And so, if you can't measure things correctly, then you’re, you know, kind of, talking in the air without anything concrete. And so, this paper was, kind of, a foundational paper to really anchor, “Here's what I think is better measurement, and here's how other measures fall short. Now that we have anchored and discussed this better measurement in this setting, let's move forward with thinking about other settings and why we have the allocation of capital that we do, having taken care of the measurement issue,” if that makes any sense.

[29:02]Maya Pomroy: So, you got the hard data to prove all of this. How do you get people to change their behavior?

[29:09]Emmanuel Yimfor: Right, you know, that is a good question. It's hard. So, I have a belief in America, at least based on my life journey, which is, if you work hard for long enough, somebody is going to recognize you and you will be rewarded for it. And so, I really believe that, America takes in data, thinks about that data for a while to think about whether the research is credible enough. And then using that data, they act in a new way that's consistent with what the new before and the new data.

And so, I think about my role as a researcher is just, like, you know, providing that data. Here's the data and here's what is consistent with what we're doing right now. Now, you know. What you do with that information now is, like, you know, update what you're doing in a way that's, like, most consistent with efficient capital allocation, is my hope. And so, like, the best way that I can, kind of, influence how this fits is by writing good papers and making cogent and logical arguments that are not impossible to understand and getting the research peer-reviewed and published.

[30:17]Maya Pomroy: Right. I think awareness is the most important part, is that, if people are aware of, you know, whether it's innate or not innate bias, that's the only way that you can make meaningful change, is to bring it to light so that people see what's happening, you know. And a lot of people don't like to talk about it, right? Like, we're in a time right now where nobody really wants to talk about it and put it on the back burner. But it is happening and there's data and evidence to prove that it is. So, instead of looking the other way, why don't we become better and stronger and more efficient and more productive and continue being, you know, the country that's the leader in innovation?

[30:56]Emmanuel Yimfor: Absolutely. Some of the insights from the research are very non-controversial, right? This issue, for example, like, minorities and women have less access to good networks. And having less access to, just to be specific, what does good networks mean exactly? If you look at venture capital partners, for example, right? They have worked at McKinsey before they became venture capital partners. So, they have worked at certain companies, they've done certain jobs that then led them to become VCs. And so, to the extent that we have a lack of representation in this pipeline of jobs that's leading to VC, then the founders that don't come from these same backgrounds do not have as equal access to the partners.

And so, what that suggests is something very basic, which is, like, just rethink the set of deals that you are considering because that might expand the pool of deals that you consider, because, you know, there might be a smart person out there that's maybe not the same race as you but that has an idea that you really, really want to fund. And that's something that I think, like, everybody would agree with, you know. We want to allocate capital to these most productive uses. And so, to the extent that, people picking up a paper like this would expect the conclusion to be already written. I would encourage them to read further. They will be surprised by some of the findings that suggest some really low-hanging fruit to improve the efficiency of capital allocation.

[32:21]Maya Pomroy: Which is what everybody wants in order to thrive and evolve and become a stronger society.

[32:27]Emmanuel Yimfor: Absolutely, yeah.

[32:28]Maya Pomroy: So, I know that you're a runner and that you recently ran a marathon. I love to run as well, and I feel like some of my best ideas are when I'm running. Is that your time to think about what you're going to do next or what you want to study? That's the only time that I can really think clearly.

[32:45]Emmanuel Yimfor: It’s very much the same as you. So, I did this all through my Ph.D. There are people who recognized me and said, “Aren't you that guy who was always running at the Rice campus?” I did that every year I was there. I would go around twice and then take a shower at the gym, and then go right back to work. And so, it's really my secret time. Every day, I have been pushing myself more and more to run longer distances. Hopefully, many more marathons to come. But it's like it's something that I've done for many, many years. And let me knock on wood. Many more years to come. It's a time to think. It's a time to reset the day. It's a time to put things into perspective. I really just check in with myself.

[33:26]Maya Pomroy: Yeah, so I hear that you've got a really interesting project coming up in Cameroon where you are going to connect folks with AI tools. Can you tell me what you're planning on doing and when you're going, and so we can ask you all sorts of questions next time when you come back?

[33:42]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah, no, absolutely. So, this is actually an initiative of my son, you know. You asked me about how I got into the Ph.D. at Rice. So, buried in there was just the role that open source resources have played in my life, right? Being able to access free education material from MIT OpenCourseWare, for example, on YouTube many years back, or, you know, even being able to access even Khan Academy videos many years back when I first came to the U.S. Remember, I couldn't really use these resources as much in Cameroon because the kind of internet connection I had access to just wouldn't allow me to load a whole 20-minute video.

And so, with the advent of artificial intelligence and all the productivity gains and how it's changing people's lives here, I kept telling my son about this. And he was like, “You know, it would be interesting to give 16-year-old you the kinds of opportunities that kids here have.” And I was brainstorming with him, thinking more about how we would exactly do that. And that, kind of, morphed, you know. And he started talking to his co-founder, too, which is Paul. They're both at Bronx Science High School.

And that morphed into the current idea, which is very simple at its heart — the fact that internet connection is not very stable in Cameroon and the fact that a lot of people connect to the internet using their mobile phones means that they can experience AI in this way that doesn't fully harness this productivity. So, they use it to edit messages on their phone or they use it to generate nice, cool pictures.

What we're going to do is we're going to take five local large language models and put them on, like, you know, heavy-duty computers. I'm talking about these gaming computers that have six or more gigabytes of VRAM that can load these models into memory. It does not require the internet. We're going to set up a learning center where kids cannot come in with their phones. No distractions. Just focus on doing your homework using these artificial intelligence models that are going to be installed locally on the computers.

And so, if you think about something like, you know, a gaming laptop that's, like, $1,000 to $1,500. For the average American, that's something that's affordable. But for a kid down there, that's a major capital investment. It's almost like a car in the U.S. where we have financing alternatives for cars. But down there, those don't really exist. And so, this could really fill a critical gap, not just in training kids to have the kind of skills they need to survive the future and showing them the full power of artificial intelligence, but in the limit. Once we have established enough of these centers, I could easily imagine a scenario where, even adults, working professionals that don't have access to the same kind of equipment, can come in there, get some work done. Of course, for the center to be sustainable, we might charge them some type of fee, and then use that to subsidize the kids that are coming in there to do their homeworks and learn, you know, coding with all the latest local large language models and just build some kind of a sustainable solution that allows the people down there to harness the latest cutting-edge technology to solve problems that are local to their community. Giving people the tools they need to empower themselves, I think it's at the very heart of being able to give them a bright future.

So, that's what the project is. We're starting small. We're currently fundraising. We're going to run a training program where we're going to tell them about the models, tell them about what AI can do beyond just using their phones, allow them to do a project, and give them a certificate that's going to give them lifetime access to the center. And then, you know, we're just hoping to build things from there. But that's the project in a nutshell.

[37:17]Maya Pomroy: Now thinking, you know, giving this opportunity and equitable access to the kids in Cameroon, you know, those might be the same ones that might be, you know, applying for those funds for their venture capital idea. So, it's, sort of, full circle, isn't it?

[37:32]Emmanuel Yimfor: Absolutely, very full circle. We're hoping, like, we produce many, many founders out of these centers that can harness this power of artificial intelligence, again, to solve local problems. There's so many small entrepreneurs in Cameroon where, you know, not just Cameroon but other parts of Africa.

[37:51]Maya Pomroy: All over the world, yeah.

[37:52]Emmanuel Yimfor: All over the world. And so, we're really hoping that, you know, like, Cameroon is just the start. We're hoping to go to as many places as possible where there's this potential gap in the amount of capital investment that's needed to, A, have access to high-quality internet so you can harness the powers of these models, and B, have access to, say, high-quality computing, where you can host large enough data sets that you can analyze for insights to, again, you know, back to coming back full circle, better allocate the resources that you have to their most productive uses.

To me, that's, like, what always excites me about finance. I have a dollar of consumption today. I want to consume that in the future. How do I allocate that dollar in the way that generates me the most consumption in the future? And we're hoping that these centers that we're setting up can be that multiplier that turns that dollar into many more.

[38:47]Maya Pomroy: I love it. I'm sure it will be a phenomenal success. And I just also wanted to ask you if you have any final thoughts for folks that want to get into this space or, you know, what you hope the future holds for founders and for the markets and efficiency, really, for our world.

[39:06]Emmanuel Yimfor: Oh, no, absolutely. So, like everybody else, I'm looking forward to seeing how artificial intelligence changes the funding landscape. I think my prediction is that it should help, you know, founders have some kind of, like, you know, working minimum viable product a lot faster. 

[39:23]Maya Pomroy: MVP, the MVP.

[39:25]Emmanuel Yimfor: Yeah, it's that MVP that they can put in front of investors, even when, you know, like, we're just discussing these frictions where you're not able to access, say, a venture capital partner because you're not part of their network. If, in addition to the application and the business idea, you can also have an MVP that they can quickly look at, you would expect that these types of things would reduce the importance of things like, you know, “Are you from my network? And does that determine whether I fund you?” Because then the MVP is another piece of information that might, you know, lead to capital being more efficiently allocated.

And so, I'm very much looking forward to seeing how the funding landscape changes, to what extent do the kinds of frictions that I’ve studied — so, like, the networking friction in particular — to what extent does that become more or less important, as we move forward with this new information that founders might be able to generate by leveraging AI to other people who are thinking about, maybe, a career in academia. It's really a place for the curious. If you're curious about explaining how the world works and improving how the world works and you want to think for a living, I cannot think of a better career path to encourage you to take on.

[40:36]Maya Pomroy: Well, yeah, curiosity. Never lose your curiosity.

[40:39]Emmanuel Yimfor: Exactly. Stay curious. Stay hungry.

[40:42]Maya Pomroy: Well, it's been a pleasure, Emmanuel. Thank you so much for joining us. And we look forward to learning more about how you expand all these opportunities to those folks that, you know, could literally change the trajectory of our world.

[40:56]Emmanuel Yimfor: Thank you so much for having me, Maya. It's been my pleasure.

[41:00]Maya Pomroy: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu.

Please, subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think.

The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Brian Jackson.

[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

Andria Monique Pourkarimi, a member of the Online MBA Class of 2025, is a former retail manager who turned life-altering experiences into two purpose-driven ventures. She's the founder of Pourkarimi & Associates, a financial consulting and insurance agency, and the co-founder of Dr. Clara, a digital health startup, focused on improving care for women with endometriosis through AI-powered tools and patient-centered design.

In this episode, we dive into how Monique's personal health journey inspired her mission to drive change in women's healthcare, how she balanced building two businesses while earning her MBA, and why she believes lived experience is one of the most powerful tools a founder can have.

Monique, welcome to Owl Have You Know.

[01:03]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Thank you so much, Brian. It's a true honor to be here, and I'm really excited to just have a discussion with you.

[01:09]Brian Jackson: Well, I am very much honored to have you. And, you know, you are famous amongst the community as being the Online student who was on campus the most. And I couldn't think of a quirkier way to say it, but what I've really loved about your experience with Rice is that, even though you were in the Online program, you found the opportunities to be on campus and to get involved. And I guess, really, where I want to start is, what's driving you to bridge that connection? And, you know, what benefit are you seeing?

[01:41]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah. Thank you, Brian. I think that that's a great way to segue into our conversation today, because as you were listing all of the things that I have been involved in, it, kind of, makes me proud to see all the accomplishments that I've been able to achieve. And I attribute a lot of it to Rice.

But it all started, right, two years ago. And at the time, yes, I was very new to starting my insurance business. The reason that I decided to pursue an MBA is because I was very passionate about helping educate individuals in terms of their health and their finances, especially growing up in South Texas, in McAllen, I realized not a lot of people talk about money, talk about health. And that's a priority, you know. At the end of the day, it's not just about the life that you spend working, it's, “How do I find a way to balance it and also live to its full purpose and potential?”

Now, pursuing my MBA, starting the journey, I was working in retail management for Costco — love Costco. Once I started the program, I knew that two years would fly by. And Rice is such a great school where you're able to utilize a lot of resources. And knowing that Rice has been ranked number one in entrepreneurship for the services that we offer, like Rice Alliance, Lilie Lab, competitions that we host through the Rice Business Plan Competitions, it's so many resources available, that I realized, “Wow, I want to make the most of these two years.”

So, I was very fortunate that I had a good relationship with my vice president and my general manager, that they gave me the opportunity to be on a student retention program, so, I didn't physically have to go to work. But I realized to myself I can use this time to be involved with a lot of organizations and be active on campus.

[03:47]Brian Jackson: And you're juggling a career, working with Costco Wholesale and also deciding, “Okay, I need to find the time to put in an MBA.” And I understand how an online MBA makes sense because your classes are in the evening. You can fit a normal work schedule in the day, and then in the evening be in class. And if you need to study or have the option to go to campus to study and get involved, you can squeeze it into your schedule.

[04:13]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, I loved the flexibility, 100%. I think, for me, that was the main reason that I'd pursued the Online MBA. But it's very true, what you say. A lot of people always saw me on campus. I would joke and say, “I'm not your traditional Online MBA student because I'm always at Rice.” But that's the beauty, too, right? You have the opportunity to put in what you would like. So, if you wanted to be involved, you had that ability to do so.

[04:41]Brian Jackson: Yeah. And I think, you know, so much of what we learned through the program, absolutely, is the coursework. But beyond it, it's like the knowledge you gain from your fellow classmates, it's the extended opportunities through any event that's being hosted, but also, even access to alumni. Like, that's all the education. And that's really the value of the program.

So, you're working at Costco. What's the light bulb moment where you're like, “Yes, Rice MBA,” all the stars have aligned, your management's saying you can do it? You know, what's putting you there? What's actually putting you in the seat?

[05:17]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, that's a great question. I think, for me, I was just thinking, wow, there's so much potential that, now, especially with an MBA, there's so much potential that I have personally in growing my businesses. And, like, you said it, too, Brian. I think, just being connected with the other students, I joke, I feel like Rice did all of the background checks for us because I love my cohort. The people at Rice, the alumni, we're one big happy Owl family. And I had a lot of people that believed in me. And they were willing to help. They were willing to, kind of, point me in the right direction.

In December of 2024, I had the opportunity to take New Enterprise. And we were tasked with starting a new business. So, that's how Dr. Clara came about. But everyone was so helpful in terms of saying, “Wow, Monique, you're very passionate about this business. You should pursue it.”

And of course, Alanis and I were… we co-founded it together. So, we both graduated in May. And now, we're tackling it together. But we attended an event that the entrepreneurship association hosted. We had it there at the Lilie lab. And it was Boba, Bytes, and Business. So, it gave us an opportunity for us to connect with undergrads that were studying computer science.

And Alanis and I connected with one of the undergrads and also an Executive MBA, and they loved the idea. They were excited to help push that forward. And now, we're in the very beginning stages of product development and also working with my physician, too. So, it's just endless possibilities. And I think that that's, kind of, where that light bulb moment was, for me, that I could make this happen, especially with that support that was essential.

[07:23]Brian Jackson: Before even starting the program, you knew that there would be just, kind of, an opening of new possibilities. And I don't know, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you had always, kind of, had this entrepreneurial spirit. And this was the gateway to actually understanding, “How does that look? And how do I get there?”

[07:43]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yes. Yes, I think that that's great, the way you said it. I think entrepreneurship runs in my blood. So, my uncle has a logistics company that's here in the U.S. and transports in Mexico as well. My grandmother, she works with him in his business. And my mom has her own insurance brokerage as well, specializing in Medicare, so independent of my pursuits.

My grandmother and my mom are the ones who raised me. So, here, it was three generations of strong Mexican women who were, you know, just under one roof. And I think that's, kind of, what shaped me in terms of the woman that I am today and that entrepreneurial spirit.

[08:31]Brian Jackson: And I was going to ask you what's the “why” — the driver. And I think that, to me, almost just sums it up. It's the upbringing, it's watching it in real time, and seeing the effort. And yeah, I mean, that's a really great story, Monique. And what an inspiration to have!

[08:46]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[08:48]Brian Jackson: So, what I really want to think about is Dr. Clara. What was the inspiration? And I know that you had a personal journey here that I think created this mission, like, purpose-driven mission.

[08:59]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah. So, for me, I was diagnosed with endometriosis back in 2021. And I've unfortunately had to already have three surgeries now since then, because with endometriosis, it doesn't just go away after surgery. It's something that can come back. And right now, a lot of research is still being done in terms of quicker diagnoses.

For me, the important critical thing was wanting to be heard and feeling validated because I did have to wait for surgery in order for that diagnosis. So, getting those scans, CT scans, MRIs, going to see multiple doctors, and getting back all negative results and thinking to myself, “Well, I'm not making up this pain,” and because I personally went through that, I, kind of, see myself as an advocate in terms of I'm not afraid to share what I'm thinking with the rest of the world. And I can put up with a lot, but there's going to be a lot of women out there that suffer in silence. And I think, with Dr. Clara, it was an opportunity, or it is an opportunity, for us to help a lot of women out there. It's like they say, purpose to pain, right? I think that's, kind of, what started all of that, purpose through pain.

[10:26]Brian Jackson: Well, thank you for sharing. And I think you found such a pain point and that this access to information, the ability to actually have these productive conversations with healthcare just sometimes don't work. And you happen to be in the largest medical center in the world.

[10:45]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yes.

[10:46]Brian Jackson: And if you're finding these challenges across markets, we have to think that those challenges exist there, too, right, when we think of rural medical providers. And it's absolutely an opportunity to help. 

[11:00]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yes, 100%. I love as well that I am based out of Houston, that, with Rice, we have that opportunity for us to leverage, utilize our network. There's something to be said about the fact that, Brian, we got our MBA at Rice, right? There's a reputation that comes with that, because it's an intense program. And I'm very proud of us.

[11:23]Brian Jackson: So, a little more on Dr. Clara. What inspired the name?

[11:27]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Oh, yeah, I love that question. So, of course, in New Enterprise, you're creating a whole business right from scratch. And I was like, marketing is my background, you know. I love marketing, creativity. All of that is, kind of, my thing. So, our slogan is, “Dr. Clara bringing Clara-ty to your endometriosis journey.” And, of course, I mean, right now, we're focusing on endometriosis, but down the line, we would like to be able to offer more services for those suffering PCOS or even just additional help for reproductive journey, if you're having to seek IVF treatments, et cetera.

[12:12]Brian Jackson: I like that “Clara-ty.” I think it's catchy.

[12:15]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah.

[11:16]Brian Jackson: Pardon the ignorance, but endometriosis, if you could, kind of, tell me, like, how many women are impacted by it, and what are, kind of, the common issues in the healthcare world right now around it.

[12:31]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, so, great question. The, kind of, definition of endometriosis is excess bleeding during menstrual cycles. But there's other symptoms, right, that we encounter. Ultimately, what the illness is, it affects your daily life. So, if you are having to call out of work a lot because of your pain, you're having to cancel plans because you're bedridden.

My mother also has suffered through it. She had stage four of it — had to have a hysterectomy. She would pass out because the pain was so bad. Some women, also, that I've interviewed were sharing their experiences with me and just talking about how they'd have to be in bed for days at a time because of the pain.

And it's just so unfortunate, you know. You're trying to live your life. You're wanting to go hang out with friends or even wanting to just work, and you can't. And so, imagine having to navigate that with an employer, you know. I think that, to me, is like, “Oh, she's calling out again,” or, “Is she really… like, what's the level of pain that they're having for it to be that bad?”

So, I think that's why, for me, the community aspect of it for women was so important. But again, I think I mentioned that, with endometriosis, it's only diagnosed through surgery. So, there's so many women that go undiagnosed. And especially, if you're having limited access to care, you're, kind of, just suffering in silence.

I'm in discussions right now because I recently had to have another laparoscopic surgery. What a way to celebrate my graduation. But I felt like I'm the guinea pig, because while I was going through the process of recovery, here I was, trying to document some of, like, the medications that I was taking, having to document if I was still experiencing certain sharp pains, what would've helped me, certain foods, you know. It would've been nice if I had access to all of those resources already. Or even if I would have been able to document it and just give that to my doctor, my provider, I think all of that would be helpful.

But because of this, I've been working also with my specialist. And so, Dr. Clara, we're hoping that that becomes something that's post-diagnosis. Now, my specialist is wanting to create something that would help with pre-diagnosis. So, we're hoping that… you know, we're working through that partnership. But if we could offer something that's all-encompassing of pre-diagnosis and post-diagnosis, that would be something that impacts the lives of so many women around the world.

[15:31]Brian Jackson: So, as it's now, it's post-diagnosis; when it rolls out, it'll be a place to take notes to share them with your care provider and to help, like, actually, you know, the identification recovery. Is that, kind of, the pathway of it?

[15:48]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yes. Yes, definitely. Like I said, endometriosis, it doesn't necessarily just go away. I'm hoping, yes, I saw my specialist, this was his first time operating on me. I hope he got it all and I don't have to worry about this again. But again, it could come back. And if so, then it would be great if I had some tool that would help me through this process. My co-founder, Alanis, likes to call me the guinea pig. And that's okay. I'm happy to be the guinea pig so we can make sure that it rolls out smoothly and it’s something that can help the lives of so many women.

[16:21]Brian Jackson: So, what's the timeline to roll out? When are we expecting the grand reveal?

[16:26]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, so exciting. Okay. Well, we actually were in talks with our app developer, product developer, yesterday. So, we've established weekly meetings to just start working on the app. So, we have our customer journey map that's ready. And we have a set deadline to have an app ready to present, actually, to the Rice Business Plan Competition in April of next year. So, hopefully, within the next six months, we have an app that I can show you, Brian.

[17:00]Brian Jackson: I’m adding it to my calendar now [crosstalk 17:03].

[17:04]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Call me up in six months.

[17:07]Brian Jackson: Yeah, I'm very excited. Wow. Awesome.

[17:09]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Thank you.

[17:09]Brian Jackson: So, a lot to be updated on in the next six months. Very good. I want to pivot a little and just talk about, clearly, you were involved at Rice and you received the M.A. Wright Award, the Owl Award, and you were named Poets & Quants Best and Brightest. After the experience, looking back, what does that all mean to you, as you reflect on Rice?

[17:31]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: I'm just so grateful, you know. I don't want to get emotional. But you mentioned earlier that, being at Rice, it opened up so many doors. And I knew that it would. I knew that a lot of doors would open, but I didn't realize, to the extent, right? And when I first started the program, as always, we all ask advice, you know, from former alum, “What's your advice to me?” And I'll always remember, they said, “The academics, it's important. You're going to learn it. It's there. That's to be expected with an MBA. But at the end of the day, it's going to be the people that you meet that's going to change your life.”

And I couldn't agree more. I think a lot of it was the people that I met, my cohort, my fellow students, but also the faculty. I think they're just so willing to help. They want to see you succeed. Yeah, I was on campus a lot because I also really enjoyed… I was in that APSE Office all the time, bothering Danielle. I say bothering, but she always had her door open for me, and I'm so grateful for that. And I know that that wouldn't be possible if we didn't have the support that we do now, you know.

When I was receiving my M.A. Wright Award at our banquet, I just said, you know, “I feel like this award belongs to all of you, to all of the students.” I wouldn't be receiving it if it weren't for them. I saw living in Houston as, kind of, a responsibility because we had students that were attending class from all over the world, right? So, imagine having to chime in to class at 3:00 AM their time and then wake up three hours later to go to work, you know. So, I just realized, you know what? There's so many opportunities on campus that I know about. But what about my fellow classmates? I would love to be able to learn about it. I saw it as a responsibility to be the boots on the ground and share those resources with everybody else. So, I think it goes back to me wanting to help educate others. And I couldn't be more happy to do so.

[19:48]Brian Jackson: Yeah, I think it's great. All I could picture when you were receiving your M.A. Wright Award is that Mean Girls scene where she takes the crown and breaks it and gives it to everybody.

[19:58]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: I wasn't given a crown so I couldn't break it, but I love that.

[20:04]Brian Jackson: But it's very true. It's the classmates. And I do agree. Like, Online program, I had a classmate who was living in Hawaii, and, you know, I was in Boston. And, you know, we did have folks that were in Houston and having that connection, and the physicality and being on campus is important and it's a representation.

So, okay, Pourkarimi & Associates, what was the moment where you saw, “This is a business I want to start, this is a product I understand, and I have the ability to help people manage through the complicated nature of insurance and, kind of, money and the topics we don't talk about?”

[20:43]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: So, again, I grew up with my mom as my role model. And she has her own insurance brokerage, so she specializes in Medicare. For me, because I was working for Costco at the time when I realized, you know what? I do want to dive deep into the health insurance industry, I think, because of what I was experiencing as well, I realized that, working for Costco, I had excellent health insurance. There were great resources available to me, but not a lot of my coworkers knew about it. And I was that person, “Hey, guys, you need to sign up for this. Why aren't you leveraging your flexible spending account? Why aren't you getting stock options? Costco's matching X, Y, Z, you know. You need to do that.”

I realized, wow, you know what? There's so many people in America that don't know about the benefits that are available to them. And I could be that person that helps educate them. I started working on a little draft as well for a book for kids to educate them about money as well. So, it's something that needs to start at a very early age, you know. And it shouldn't be something scary. It should be something fun, you know, about saving money, and how can I invest that money?

[22:09]Brian Jackson: Yeah. I mean, the story of compound interest and the Rule of, what is it, 72? And those were things I don't think I learned about until I got on the phone with one of my uncles. And he explained it to me. And all of a sudden, my eyes opened and I was like, “Well, I've lost the peak earning years. At 18, I should have been saving.”

[22:28]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yes, yes.

[22:29]Brian Jackson: Because the dollars then work way harder than the dollars I save today. And that is, unfortunately, a lesson you only learn with time, and by then it feels too late.

[22:40]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah. It's never too late. So, that's the good thing. But yes, if we're able to just start talking about it at such an early age, you know, I think that it will help make positive change. I love it because I am the oldest. I do have two younger sisters and two younger brothers. My sister, the baby, she is 20 years old and she lives with me in Houston. But I love it because she's saving, you know, and she plans to buy a home in two years. And I know that she can get there. But I love it that we're having those conversations. I love that my mom raised me. I think she did a great job raising me. But I think that it's so important to have those conversations with young adults.

And because I am 34, she's 20 years old, I can share my experiences with her and everything that I've learned and maybe how things that I would've done differently. So, I think that, if we take advantage of, also, relationships that we have with those who are older and wiser, we could learn so much.

[23:48]Brian Jackson: I feel like, every time I look at my finances and try to think about retirement, there's always more that I'm like, “I wish I, you know, knew a little more about this.”

[23:58]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah.

[24:00]Brian Jackson: You know, we do get to an age, too, where it's like, you might be missing something. And it's possible. There's so many levers and opportunities that are out there. And you were talking about company benefits that we're probably just not thinking about and not taking advantage of because you onboard a new job, they give you a big packet, you check-mark a couple of things, send it off to HR, and you, kind of, forget.

[24:24]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[24:25]Brian Jackson: Life goes on. Between, you know, dogs, cats, houses, and all the other things that we're managing in life, you know.

[24:32]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah. MBAs, you know.

[24:35]Brian Jackson: Yeah. Small things like an MBA and, you know, trying to be a good person. All the stuff we think about. So, okay, next is a possibility of exploring a Ph.D., JD in public policy. You know, what systemic issues are you hoping to change, and why?

[24:52]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, that's a great question. So, my undergrad was in political science. So, government policy, legal studies. For me, I've always been very interested in the ways that we could leverage government. And because of my background in health insurance, helping my policyholders file claims that get rejected. Not to go into too many specifics, right, but having to help a cancer patient get an MRI and having it rejected by an insurance carrier is so disheartening, you know. 

At the end of the day, healthcare, it’s important for us in terms of our lives, you know. You only get one life. So, for me, diving into public policy, just seeing, kind of, the way our healthcare system is now and also personal experiences that I had to face, I think I had to wait about six months just to get an MRI. And that was because I had to go back and forth with insurance.

So, again, because of that experience, because of the physical pain that I was going through, thank God I understood the process, you know. Imagine millions of Americans out there that don't even know. Like, they get a rejection and then they're like, “Okay. Well, that's done. Now, I can't get my MRI.” No, sir. I know what I need to do. I need to go back and have my doctor file again, you know. Was there a code that was not on… You know, I think that there's change that needs to be done.

I joke, I say, “I must really love school.” No, but I think there's change that can happen, but you have to put yourself in those positions. And being at Rice was that perfect opportunity, being right there in the medical center, you know. I think that's why that transition into healthcare was… it's possible.

[26:51]Brian Jackson: No, absolutely. And I think it seems like sometimes the system is there to protect against fraud, and all these codes are required to do so and ensure that, you know, overtreatment. But it gets to a point where, I don't know, I always think of the scales and, like, what are we balancing here?

[27:09]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah.

[27:09]Brian Jackson: I guess, you know, when you were in your career at Costco, then when you went to your MBA at Rice, to now, I'm sure the definition of success has evolved a bit. And I would love to know if you could, kind of, summarize that evolution, and what is success meaning to you now?

[27:25]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah. I think, for me, success is counting, how many people am I able to help at the end of the day, right? And it's not a number of just benchmarks of, “Oh, okay, I have a quota of helping 500,000 people.” No, it's not about that. At the end of the day, do I confidently know that I've been able to help make a positive impact in this world? 

I think success is, what is my legacy? And if I were to die today, you know, what would people think about me? Did I make a positive impact in people's life? That, to me, is success.

[28:02]Brian Jackson: It's exactly the type of success that, I think, truly matters. And I think it takes a special journey to get there, to understand that that's what it's all about, right? Is the impact we have on others and the good that we do. So, yeah, a perfect answer.

[28:19]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah.

[28:19]Brian Jackson: You could have said money, and I would've said that's fine (laughter).

[28:24]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: I mean, yes, who doesn't want money? You need money to make change in this world, you know. Money is important. And I do want a return on investment on my education.

[28:37]Brian Jackson: It's a part of it always, yeah.

[28:39]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I did want to add. So, you, kind of, mentioned how there's two businesses that I'm working on right now. And it's a lot, right? Like, a lot of people say that whenever you're working on something, you know, you want to give 100% to whatever you're doing. I think pursuing an MBA teaches you a lot about time management, also, you know.

[29:04]Brian Jackson: Yeah.

[29:04]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: I was involved in so many things. And I truly believed that time management was important. I realized that it's not just about saying “yes” to everything, but it's also about empowering other people to help you. So, that may have been something that I did struggle with in the past, but I realized very quickly through the MBA, you know what? If I have a project that needs to get done, or if we're trying to prepare for a conference, if I don't have something done, well then I can ask for help. So, same thing with the business. If I know that I'm needing help with something, I have that capability of being able to go and lean on someone and help make it happen.

[29:51]Brian Jackson: No, it's a great point. I feel like time management, it's almost that realization that it's okay to say, “Hey, I've hit my limit,” and to then ask for help. It's not a weakness to say, “I don't have the bandwidth right now. And I can't do this as well as I normally could.” And being under the gun with a full-time job and doing an MBA and then also trying to be involved will teach you that very quickly.

[30:19]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Yeah, exactly.

[30:20]Brian Jackson: Monique, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your story so openly. You've shown how lived experience, education, and purpose can come together to create real impact. And we can't wait to see what's next for you. Thank you.

[30:36]Andria Monique Pourkarimi: Thank you, Brian.

[30:39]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please, subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.