[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot Series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

Today, we're joined by Chris Stillwell, a Rice Business Full-Time MBA graduate from the class of 2024, who's taken a unique path from military intelligence to the world of finance. In the military, Chris built a foundation in leadership, discipline, and decision-making under pressure. He later transitioned to consulting, including time in Dubai, working on M&A Integration and Strategy. That experience led him to Rice Business, where he pursued an MBA to sharpen his financial skills and pivot into investment banking.

In this episode, we cover Chris's military experience, why he chose Rice, how the program supported a major career shift, and his advice for veterans and professionals considering a career transition through an MBA.

Hey, Chris, it's great to have you join me on Owl Have You Know.

[01:00]Chris Stillwell: Thanks for having me, Brian. I appreciate it. Appreciate being here.

[01:03]Brian Jackson: You've had one of the more fascinating career arcs that I think I've covered, from military intelligence to strategy consulting in Dubai and now investment banking at Bank of America. I mean, I heard military intelligence, and of course, I'm thinking of all the Hollywood movies. You know? It's really dramatic. Everything seems so cinematic, right? And has to happen quickly, and it's life-or-death decisions. But I guess from your experience, there's got to be a gap in these portrayals and, like, the real substance of military intelligence work.

[01:37]Chris Stillwell: 100%. I think that it sounds a lot sexier than it really is. Like, there's a lot of military movies out there. One of my jobs with the Army I commanded a drone unit. And I don't know if you've ever heard of the movie Eye in the Sky. I remember watching that, it was like, with Helen Mirren, it's all about drones.

I remember watching that and was like, "This is not how any of this works. This is, like, the complete antithesis of how we operate and how things are actually done." I just remember, like, getting out of that movie just being, like, frustrated. So, it's not as cool as some of the movies portray. Like, we can't identify people's faces from a drone 5,000 feet in the sky, but we could certainly do some other cool things, for sure.

[02:15]Brian Jackson: But you spent more than five years, right, in the Army, and you were in roles in Texas and New York. You know, could you tell me a bit about those roles?

[02:23]Chris Stillwell: So, I did four years active duty, and I did one year in the Reserves in, in New York for a bit. And when I was in active duty, I was stationed here in Texas at Fort Hood up in Killeen. Actually, lived in Austin, used to commute up there. As an intelligence officer, you know, I was primarily responsible for advising infantry or tank units on, you know, what the enemy course of action would be.

And I would have, like, a team of analysts that would assist me and, kind of, be like the red hat, we would call it, for the operations team, so that we can develop a plan to ultimately, like, defeat that enemy, whether it was in a training scenario or in a, you know, more forward-deployed scenario. I spent nine months in the Middle East as well, bouncing around a couple countries. But yeah, mostly you do intelligence advising attached to those units. Then I had one year where I was, you know, command that your own unit as well.

[03:10]Brian Jackson: So, I mean, all this is teamwork, and it seems to be situations where you're under pressure. Like, as a leader and as someone now who approaches teamwork, has this shaped, kind of, how you work across functions?

[03:21]Chris Stillwell: Absolutely. I think, you know, the military is a unique experience for a lot of people, especially those going to be an officer after school. Whether you go to West Point or ROTC, you're a 22-year-old kid, and then you're like, "Hey, here's a bunch of people you're now in charge of, you know, their lives and their responsibilities. Go after it." You know? And it's, there's no, like, manual, pretty much, of how to be a good leader. I mean, there's plenty of books written about it, but you really do have to learn.

And, you know, learn from not only your peers, but learn from people who are more senior than you as well. And, you know, as an intelligence officer, too, it's, kind of, a lot of pressures on you as well, is when you're trying to make the right call and give the right advice to your senior leaders, because bad advice or bad calls can really affect how you're operating.

[04:05]Brian Jackson: I know you probably can't talk much in specifics about it, but I'm sure you're, kind of, on pins and needles until the operation's over and you know that the intelligence was actionable and accurate.

[04:14]Chris Stillwell: Yeah. And you're also doing work during the operation as well. You're assessing, like, how much of the, let's say, enemy forces that have been you know, attrited. So, how much is remaining? You're also assessing what if there could be, like, a counterattack, let's say, or any kind of additional things that the enemy could do.

And then you're also organizing and helping any kind of collection efforts, making sure that you're looking in the right places to see where these additional enemy, like, attacks could come from, and then making sure that you're sending that information upwards and downwards. And I think that's maybe a good segue into, back to your original question, is, you know, how being a military officer helped me be, kind of, in my current role, and even at Rice, was, in the military, you are a leader, but you learn how to be a good follower as well. And I think what you do with that is that you are able to have great teamwork.

You're able, like, in my current job now, I have an analyst underneath me, but I have people like VPs and MDs above me, and I can understand what their intent is and what we need to get accomplished in our day-to-day job, but also articulate to the, you know, people below me, "Hey, this is the intent and this is how we do it." So, it's, kind of, been very helpful in those soft skills.

[05:19]Brian Jackson: Definitely. So, that would be one of the, I guess, mindsets that you took from the Army. Is there maybe a habit that you developed that you still lean on today?

[05:25]Chris Stillwell: From the military? I would say definitely getting things done is maybe the wrong way to say it, but, like, you know, or maybe getting a decision made. I mean, the worst thing you can do in the military is be indecisive. You got to make sure that you make decisions under pressure. And even today, like, I see it sometimes, you know, to my detriment or to my benefit.

You know, I want to make a decision now, whereas some people might want to sit on it and deliberate, and like, "No, let's just do this. Let's go for it, and let's adjust accordingly." So, that's definitely something I continue to do now.

[05:56]Brian Jackson: In corporate America, I see a lot of decisions get to the back burner, so you're exactly right. Like, how do you push it and say, "How do we get this decision point, make this actionable?"

[06:05]Chris Stillwell: Even just advancing meetings. Like, people, so many times will just sit around and just wait for someone to talk, and you're just sitting in this meeting for, like, extra minutes. Or, like, no, everyone's dancing around a question or dancing around an answer, and you're just like, "You got to progress the meeting," and you got to go, "Okay, let's go to this slide." "Okay, let's move here. Let's move there."

[06:22]Brian Jackson: So, Chris, could you tell me what inspired you to join the military?

[06:26]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, I mean, my story was, is not, like, super profound. Like, no one in my family served in the military. Actually, I just did I was an Eagle Scout, and Boy Scouts really exposed me to it, and I wanted to serve my country, so I did ROTC when I was in college. That was, kind of, my drive.

[06:41]Brian Jackson: Awesome. I'm an Eagle Scout too, but I didn't go as far as you. What was your Eagle Scout project?

[06:48]Chris Stillwell: So, I went to high school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's very, I guess, old. And so, there was an old cemetery there from the 1600s, but there were people buried in the 1700s and 1800s there as well. And one person was, like, from the Revolutionary War as well as a veteran. And so, they needed somebody to clean it up and document, like, who's even buried here? And so, that's what I did, was I cleaned up this cemetery, documented all the gravestones, took pictures, and, kind of, put a little memorial there so that people could visit and stuff like that.

[07:19]Brian Jackson: That's fantastic.

[07:20]Chris Stillwell: What was yours?

[07:21]Brian Jackson: Mine was in Malaysia, in Kuala Lumpur, and it was with the SPCA. And dogs get, kind of, a tough case there, so we repainted and cleaned kennels. And we had this mural in the front that had dogs and cats and everything painted on it, and it was really pretty. It took way longer than I anticipated and was much bigger of a project than I thought I signed up for, but, yeah, it was a lot of fun. Four weekends in a row, painting.

[07:52]Chris Stillwell: I can imagine it's rewarding, though. I think the Eagle Scout project, definitely something that not a lot of people get to do, and it definitely helps a lot of people in the community.

[08:01]Brian Jackson: It does. So, your pivot, one I think is from Army to consulting in Dubai. How did you end up there? Was that kind of the focus? Was it, "Okay, geographic choice, I wanted to go abroad?" Or was it consulting, and the geography was the bonus?

[08:17]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, great question. I have a very, I guess, weird path to consulting in Dubai, which I, you know, I was not expecting. One already, being in the Middle East when I was in the military, I thought I would never go back to the Middle East. And lo and behold, I ended up going to Dubai. Luckily, when I was in the military, I actually was in Dubai, so at least I had been to that city before, so I wasn't foreign to it.

And consulting, when I was in college, I interned pretty much every semester and every summer. And in the summers, I actually interned two years in consulting, so I was familiar with the space. And when I was leaving the military, I had an offer from Deloitte in DC, and then I also… Kearney actually reached out to me. I didn't apply to them. A recruiter reached out to me and said, "Hey, we're trying to build our Dubai office. We had some success hiring a couple of veterans. Would you be interested in coming to our office?"

And I was like, "Oh, actually, I heard…" I looked at the firm, I did some research, and, you know, they're a great kind of boutique consulting firm, kind of, similar, I would say, strategy to what the MBBs do in terms of, like, strategic consulting. And I was like, "You know what? It'd be really cool to live abroad, maybe for a year or two. And when I moved out there, I thought I was going to only be out there for a year or two." And I ended up being out there for three years. So, I did enjoy it.

[09:26]Brian Jackson: So, you spent time at the Mall of the Emirates?

[09:29]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, I lived nearby, so I could walk there if I wanted to.

[09:33]Brian Jackson: It's actually the first place I ever skied, was in Dubai, at the Mall of the Emirates.

[09:38]Chris Stillwell: Wow. A little icy, though, right?

[09:40]Brian Jackson: Yeah, not great. Not a good experience. But yeah, you know, still get to say I skied in the desert. So, it's something.

[09:47]Chris Stillwell: Absolutely.

[09:48]Brian Jackson: So, three years as an expat, you know. I grew up as an expat brat. I had my own experience with it. Be curious about some of your takeaways. What did you think about living abroad as an American?

[09:59]Chris Stillwell: Similar to, I would say, most Americans, I feel like… Or say a lot of Americans, we love to travel. And I've traveled a lot around the world even before I lived abroad. But living abroad, I think, is a completely different kind of experience than just traveling and being somewhere for a week. Like, you miss small things, like pretzels. I don't know why, but pretzels were incredibly hard to get in Dubai. And I don't really like pretzels that much, but just the lack of it made it more attractive.

And then there were just, like, small nuances of, like, "Oh, wow, this is actually something that's significantly different in terms of how something operates in a foreign country compared to, like, your home." But Dubai was an interesting place to be because it was such a melting pot in terms of different cultures and different countries. Like, I would go to a British grocery store. You know, like, there's an Indian grocery store. There was a, you know, local grocery store. I mean, like, there were so many different country influences. And I think it's even reflected in the people there as well.

And that, I thought, that's the coolest part about living abroad, is meeting people from all these different countries and different cultures and different backgrounds that you're not used to. I'm a big golfer, and my golf group, you know, was myself, an Italian guy, a British guy, a South African guy. So, it's like who's who of different countries. So, it was really cool.

[11:14]Brian Jackson: It's a real melting pot. So, I guess professionally, you know, living there, you're being challenged already, kind of, being pushed out of your boundaries, even just beyond the nine-to-five. What was the nine-to-five like?

[11:26]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, I wish it was nine-to-five. That would have been cool. I would say I'm the worst case study for careers in terms of nine-to-five. I don't think I've ever had a nine-to-five career yet. As a consultant, you know, as you talk with even people that go to Rice and get into consulting, you know, you do a lot. I was traveling every week. It was four days in a hotel, you know. And, like, a lot of times, you know, you work till midnight, maybe, or maybe you're done at, like, 7:00. It all depends on what you're working on.

But basically, as a consultant, I was with the client, and the hours are a little different for the client. So, they were there from 7:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. in the Middle East, because I mostly worked with Emirati clients. And then from, like, 2:00 p.m. onwards, I went, like, back to my hotel or back to my office, and we would, kind of, work as a team from there. The business language is English as well, which was interesting, very helpful for me. That's why I think so many people from all of these different countries could come to work in the Middle East.

But yeah, consulting, you know, is sitting with the client, doing a lot of PowerPoints and presentations, a lot of deliverables, advancing, kind of, the plan that you've set out, and meeting all these different milestones that you've promised the client. And then you've always got a little bit of BD on the side, business development and recruiting as well. You know, I used to do interviews as well for, you know, people trying to get into Kearney. But yeah, that was kind of a high-level view of the day-to-day.

[12:46]Brian Jackson: I mean, with your background of wanting to get projects pushed forward and get to a decision point, I mean, consulting's a perfect fit. You're seeing the problem of the client, you're giving them the solution, right? And implementing it. Is there a project that stood out to you in your time in Dubai?

[13:04]Chris Stillwell: There was one in particular. You know, we were helping to merge, kind of, two government organizations together, two, like, ministries into a single ministry. And so, that involved developing a Target Operating Model, meeting with clients. And, you know, it's kind of nerve-wracking sometimes when you're, you know, you're just this young guy going into meetings, and you're deciding the fate of an organization, even with headcount. You know, and you're deciding what the new organization's going to look like, what its roles, responsibilities, what's its mandates.

Obviously, you're not a decision-maker, but you're, you're facilitating that decision, and someone higher than you is making those decisions, especially on the client side. You know, that was just a very unique experience. You know, it was one of the first times I was exposed to, like, very senior people who were decision-makers in a country, and, like, it was going to make lasting impacts on how they were going to operate as a government.

[13:53]Brian Jackson: So, this being your first pivot, were there moments where there were, like, aha moments of, like, "Oh yeah, this makes sense. I know how to do this because of my previous experience in the military?”

[14:05]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, actually, to answer your question, but it was a very humbling moment for me. When I first joined consulting, I thought I was so great at PowerPoint because I had done all these PowerPoints in the military, you know, presenting to senior leaders and saying, "Look at these cool slides and maps that I used to, like, show." And then I get to consulting, and I had this manager who was like, "These are terrible slides. You need to do better." Then he obviously taught me how to do it better, but it was like, "Oh, there's actually an art to this PowerPoint thing."

And there's actually an art to how you structure a presentation and how you present to clients. And maybe in the military and a lot of other, maybe, corporate jobs, that art is not really practiced or understood. And I think consulting, and now even banking to an extent, really hone in on that skill. So, maybe that, kind of, answered your question, too. But, you know, it's definitely a…

[14:51]Brian Jackson: I mean, there's challenge with pivoting, and there's things that you think, yeah, I'm fantastic at doing this, but maybe not. Maybe it's an adjustment to a new language, and you pick it up. So, you're in Dubai, and you're thinking about the U.S., and you're thinking about an MBA. What pushed you to say, "Okay, this is it, now is the time?"

[15:09]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, so I initially, you know, wanted to stay only abroad for a year or two. You know, in the military, I had deployed. I had spent a lot of time away from home at training in the field, and I was, "Hey, I wasn't expecting to live abroad." COVID also hit while I was out there. And because of that, that actually extended my stay there as well, because things in Dubai actually were, kind of, better than America in terms of, like, golf was open, restaurants were open a lot earlier than it was in America. So, I, and I didn't really get some of the additional travel I wanted to do, like to Europe or Asia.

So, I wanted to stay until things opened up. And then when things opened up, it was great. I got to do that. But then I hit my three-year, kind of, almost close to my three-year mark, and I was like, "All right, I've done my time here. I want to go back to America. What are my options?" And I was weighing going back with my company and maybe pivoting. But I decided that I enjoyed consulting, but I really didn't enjoy living in a hotel four days a week anymore.

And then, when I was looking at careers and what to do, a lot of my colleagues, you know, consulting is a post-MBA job, and a lot of my colleagues had MBAs, and were telling me about it. And so, I was like, "All right, let me look into MBAs." And my picking of an MBA, I'm glad it worked out for me in terms of getting to Rice, but I really only wanted to go back to Texas or Florida because I lived in Texas before I came, and my family lives in Florida, and I like golfing. It's nice weather there all year round, and there's no taxes. So, lots of great things.

So, when I was looking at schools, Rice was the best school, ranking-wise, in terms of those two states. And I was like, "All right, let me just… I applied round one, so let me see if I get in. If I get in, good to go. If I don't get in, then I'll maybe look at some other schools." And I got in, and I was like, "Great." It was, like, December of '21, I got in. And I was like, "Great." And I gave my notice to my company, and, kind of, told them I wanted to leave around March timeframe. They were like, "Yep, no problem." So, stayed there for a couple more months, came back, and started my MBA career after that.

[17:01]Brian Jackson: Wow. So, beyond no taxation in the state of Texas and in our phenomenal ranking, was there anything specific about Rice that really drew you into it?

[17:11]Chris Stillwell: I was looking for some things like smaller classrooms, for example. Like a lot of people, we hire from Kearney, where, like, from Yale or HBS, and, like, their class size was like a thousand people. And, like, I think Rice, especially in the first term, really forces you to go to classes, to do your homework, to learn the materials.

And that was attractive to me as well, because I didn't come from a finance background at all. So, I didn't even know what a DCF was before I came through Rice. So, I was very grateful at that, you know, getting to Rice and realizing that it was such a good platform to be integrated into.

[17:43]Brian Jackson: For those who don't know, what is DCF?

[17:45]Chris Stillwell: DCF is Discounted Cash Flow, and it's the analysis, and it's basically a model to help understand the future cash flows of a company. And at the end of the day, you're arriving at an intrinsic value of what the company's worth.

[17:59]Brian Jackson: So, okay, you get to Rice. You jumped in, you got involved, you were in the Finance Association, you were the co-president, obviously, you were in the golf club, the Veterans Association, and the M.A. Wright Fund. You know, were you just trying to do a bit of everything to network and see where you wanted to go? What was the plan here?

[18:17]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, I think partially it, I think it's my background or my drive. I'm always someone who tries to get involved in things and be a part of clubs, and then maybe rise to leadership in clubs as well. You know, I did that in my undergrad. I do that now. I sit on, kind of, I'm involved in, like, on a board of a charity. And so, at Rice, I did an investment banking recruiting my first semester, and I felt like the Finance Association there did a fantastic job in training us, and prepping us, and mentoring us to get a banking job, to get us up to par in terms of the knowledge.

And so, I felt that, you know, and I then, obviously, I got an internship offer, and then when my second year started, I wanted to, kind of, give back to the organization, and I ran with my friend Jasper, who works at Wells Fargo, for co-president at the club. And we won. It was such a rewarding, I would say, second year, kind of, helping shape. Been the class below us, and even now I'm still friends with a lot of people who recruited even the year below us, and, kind of, still talk to them and run into them in the tunnels of downtown Houston.

[19:18]Brian Jackson: That's great. Yeah. The classmates are always the biggest part of the program, and the relationships you take afterwards as alumni. What part of this experience at Rice made the biggest impact on you?

[19:30]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, I mean, definitely getting a job, 100%. For sure.

[19:34]Brian Jackson: You took a giant leap here. So, that's fair answer.

[19:38]Chris Stillwell: But overall, I mean, like you go to get your MBA, one for a job, but two, it's also for networking and the connections you make. And I moved to a city where I knew nobody, to a school where I knew nobody, into a career where I knew nobody. And now I feel like it's almost really hard for, like, my mom still wants me to move back to Florida, and I think it'd be almost really hard for me to do that because I've made so many friends at Rice. I have friends that I go golfing with every weekend. I have friends that I, you know, every single bank pretty much in downtown, because we all recruited together.

I've just made friends through friends who've been in Houston for a long time. So, you know, you make this great network just going to Rice. And I feel like people at Rice, in particular, they take the work seriously, but not themselves, if that makes sense. Like, you find your good people at the end of the day.

[20:28]Brian Jackson: Folks are willing to work really hard. They're willing to share information, and I feel like people who take themselves too seriously are the ones who are competitive and not trying to maybe, you know, share the wealth.

[20:39]Chris Stillwell: Absolutely.

[20:40]Brian Jackson: So, I mean, this is basically you going into your next pivot, you know, going into investment banking. Was there, like now, an elevated sense of confidence of, "Okay, I've done this before. I'll do it again?”

[20:54]Chris Stillwell: Maybe some blind confidence sometimes. Yeah, you could even ask my parents. I went home for like four days for the Christmas break, the year I was recruiting, and I was, like, studying flashcards with my mom of all the IB 400 questions. And I was like, "I'm not going to get a job." You know, like, “All these people around me are much smarter than me. We've got a really talented pool of candidates that are recruiting this year.”

But, you know, I felt like at the end of the day, the Finance Association, and Rice, just the classes I took, really prepared me to understand, like, the basics of finance, the basics that are expected of the interview process, and then going forward. I saw when I started as an intern at the bank, I went to New York for a week. We were training with all these people from all these different schools, going to all these different groups in the bank. And some people didn't even know what a DCF was or, like, didn't know how to do it that well, I should say.

We were doing some practice problems, and I was like, "Wow, we're actually far ahead of a lot of these other schools and people." So, that was, kind of, good to see that, you know, Rice really put an effort into training us up. And nowadays, you know, I'm still involved with Rice in the recruiting process, just on the other side now. And, like, they have a bootcamp that they do where they train the students going into investment banking every weekend. They give them a different class that are taught by either bankers or teachers. They still have a mentorship program.

So, I think that Rice invests a lot of it into its students, that maybe some other schools, you'd just be a statistic.

[22:16]Brian Jackson: So, for folks who might want a career in investment banking and don't have your mother to help them with the flashcards, you would say the Rice program does a great job in helping them in the recruiting phases.

[22:27]Chris Stillwell: Absolutely. I mean, if you look at the, especially in Houston, you know, we got the proximity to the banks here. If you're recruiting into energy banking, Rice is one of the best schools to go to. We've had a great kind of placement program over the last decade or so. If you look at the number of bankers across the different banks in Houston, there's at least one or two Rice people at each bank.

[22:49]Brian Jackson: So, as an alumni, there's ways to volunteer after, right? And to come back and help students through recruiting.

[22:55]Chris Stillwell: Absolutely. I mean, there's I believe it was the year after me, the Finance Association started a mentorship program where not only they can help mentor MBA students that are getting into banking, but also undergrads that are getting into banking as well, because we also recruit analysts out of the undergrad population, and so they've partnered with the Rice Business Society and the undergrad school. We've also… You know, on the recruitment side, there's the IB Advisory Council where we work with the Career Development Office with Rice, and we help, kind of, set the rules every year.

We help advise them on what banks are looking for in terms of candidates, in terms of, like, the stats, GMAT score, stuff like that, we're looking at. But there's, I mean, there's so many ways to give back. So, it's been great.

[23:39]Brian Jackson: So, okay, you've got, you know, military consulting background, your MBA in pocket, you show up day one for your full-time job. What were you leaning on? What comes to mind of the skills that mattered and maybe the ones that you could have freshened up on?

[23:55]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think the skills that were a plus going into the job was consulting experience, 100% helped me, especially PowerPoint skills, interfacing with clients, navigating just the corporate structure, super helpful. From the military, just having that leadership presence and working with, you know, no understanding how to manage analysts and manage people above you as well.

 

But obviously, there's a lot of unknowns, I think, in investment banking as well. Maybe this is the scary part where it's like there's so many details, and there's so many things that you don't know, like how companies are structured, how to value them. You know, like, especially, I don't come from an energy background either, so I remember when I was at Rice, I was always asking my, like, petroleum engineer friends questions about the energy industry and how it works.

And then day one, you step in investment banking. It's not like they're secretly saying, here's this class you're going to take for one week on energy. It's like, "No, it's, you got to," they're going to start throwing acronyms at you. You just got to learn. And then you get staffed on five things, and you're like, "Okay, I don't know where I am, but I'm going to figure this out."

So, I leaned on a lot of things that, I guess, soft skills to help me, and then I had to really hone in on the hard skills to, kind of, bring me up to speed. And it really is learning by firehose. But, you know, I think that people who are successful, they show that they can actually absorb the information, work hard, and meet the expectations of the bank.

[25:18]Brian Jackson: So, you're at Bank of America, you're in the Natural Resources Energy Transition Group. So, what does your role look like? What does your day-to-day, kind of, seem? I know it's not nine-to-five.

[25:28]Chris Stillwell: Yeah, and, you know, that's kind of the cool thing. That's why I maybe have chosen the three careers that I've had so far, and now investment banking as well. There is no defined day. Every day is different, you know, it's very dynamic. You kind of, you do know obviously what you're going to do, but, like, it can change in the blink of an eye, and I find that exciting.

I really would hate to do the exact same thing every day. It would be like Groundhog Day, but instead, you know, like even today, I'm on a sell-side right now, so we're helping sell a company, and we had a bunch of management presentations where we're presenting the company to these select potential buyers. And that's a very interesting experience, because I'm sitting literally at a table across from a CEO of another company and listening to questions he has about the company that we're selling.

And that's, like, a really interesting thing for me. And then there's other times where it's like you're just trying to figure out why this number on these two slides don't tie and why they're different. You know, it's like there's very different elements of the job. I mean, there's a lot of people skills as well. You know, I think I really liked in the military as well, you're, kind of, given a task and not always kind of a guardrail of how to get that task accomplished or, like, a roadmap to do it.

And in banking, it's, kind of, similar, and a lot of times you, kind of, have to extend your influence outside of your, like, chain of command, for lack of a better term. And you've got to talk to people across different product groups, across different elements, the bank to get things done. You know, and that's, kind of, exciting to me too, because you get to talk to different people, meet different people as well. But yeah. And then sometimes you're just in the model, just building in a financial model, all these different Excel backups, and then outputting those things into a PowerPoint slide to make it more presentation-friendly for clients.

It's kind of eye-opening, and it's, kind of, interesting to see what risk tolerance some companies have versus other companies. What… You know, in the energy industry, like if you're talking about upstream, like where do they want to drill? Do they want to exit? Do they want to stay? What price points are they really sensitive to in terms of, like, future operations? It's interesting.

[27:35]Brian Jackson: If you had to give advice to folks thinking about a pivot, what would you, kind of, give to them to do it successfully?

[27:42]Chris Stillwell: Yeah. I think doing your research is the number one thing. I think just having an assumption or just looking at something at a very high level, like I'll use banking just as an example, but, like, if you look and you, like, say, "Oh, banking, you know, they make good salary, they make good bonus, I want to get into that." But then you don't do the research to see what is actually required for the recruitment process. I think it's very defined. Consulting is also a very defined recruitment process.

You have to meet all these little tick marks. You have to dress appropriately, you have to coffee chat. You have to meet the right people. Then there are other industries, you know, that even, like, out of an MBA, like, for example, venture capital or even marketing, where those recruitment pipelines are not well-defined, and it's mostly about networking. And so, what I'm, I guess, behind what I'm saying is, like, just do your research and, like, really understand if you want to pivot into a certain industry, understand how, what you have to do to get there.

And the best way to do that is obviously looking online, but also, you know, going to the right school and then reaching out to alumni or reaching out to people who are interning in that field and understanding how they did it.

[28:44]Brian Jackson: That's great. And I guess the other thing I think about, you've seen leadership in the Army, global consulting, and now banking. Has your definition of leadership evolved through each of these?

[28:56]Chris Stillwell: That's a good question. There are certain people who can be leaders and are very good at being leaders. But being a good leader in the military might not translate to being a good leader at banking. And a lot of times, you actually see that, or you see, like, military officers leave the military and go into the corporate world and not be as successful. Because I really think you do need to tailor your leadership style to, one, the industry you're working in, and two, the people you're working with, you know, different ways of operating motivate people differently.

Like in the military, you could yell at somebody and hold them to a higher standard, and maybe they'll do it. But, like, if you yelled at somebody in like, you know, a marketing job, they probably would shut down, and, like, that'd be the end of it. You know, like, it really doesn't work the same. The leadership style is something that you have to adjust to the area you're working in.

[29:43]Brian Jackson: That's great, and I think it's so true. If you started yelling at me through a Teams Channel, I'm going to just, I'm going to hang up.

[29:49]Chris Stillwell: Yeah.

[29:49]Brian Jackson: We're not going to get very far. So, in all of this, I mean, I know you're a big golfer, you know, is there something that you do to stay grounded to perform at your best?

[30:01]Chris Stillwell: I mean, you definitely need to de-stress, of course, and you got to have that social interaction. This is just my opinion. So, like, golfing is one of my outlets to do that, get to be outside, get to be with friends, get to challenge myself in something that, you know, is outside of work. And sometimes it's very frustrating, and sometimes it's very rewarding when you hit a good shot. But just hanging out with friends, hanging out with family, is also important to me.

Working out, traveling, and seeing new places and new people, all great stuff for me. And then maybe occasionally binge-watching some TV when you have time.

[30:36]Brian Jackson: You ever hit a hole in one?

[30:40]Chris Stillwell: I wish. That's still in the cards for me. Hopefully one day.

[30:45]Brian Jackson: Okay. You've got a long career in golf ahead of you, so maybe it'll happen.

[30:48]Chris Stillwell: Yes.

[30:49]Brian Jackson: So, when you think of the next few years out, are there, like, specific challenges or opportunities that you're excited about, to take on?

[30:57]Chris Stillwell: The interesting thing about my career, even currently, there is an element to progression. You know, there is a defined path, and with each positions, your job changes completely. You know, you're still, obviously, have to do the basic skills of the job and understand how finance works and how energy works and whatever. But then VP, you start to blend client interaction and business development with, also, reviewing the work and making sure it gets done.

And managing director, it's, like, mostly building that business development, giving it strategic advice to clients. So, it is, kind of, exciting that, like, my life will always continue to change. It's not going to be, like, set in stone, I'm going to be in the same job forever, doing the exact same thing. So, that's always exciting for me.

[31:39]Brian Jackson: You pick the right field to grow into, and there's plenty of opportunity in the different levels that might be ahead of you.

[31:45]Chris Stillwell: Exactly.

[31:46]Brian Jackson: So, for anyone listening who's considering an MBA as a part of their career pivot trajectory, especially veterans or career switchers, what's one piece of guidance you'd want to leave them with?

[31:58]Chris Stillwell: I would say, you know, pick the program about plug and Rice. Hopefully, Rice is your program. They choose. But, you know, pick the program that makes the best sense for the career that you're choosing.

I didn't come from an energy background and I really learned so much about energy just taking these different classes at Rice, like geopolitics of energy or energy and transition, and going to refs as well. And, you know, I wouldn't have gotten that experience at maybe other schools.

[32:22]Brian Jackson: Well, Chris, first, thank you for your service. Really appreciate it. And also thank you for joining me on Owl Have You Know for sharing your story. This has just been a great conversation.

[32:32]Chris Stillwell: Yeah. No, it's been great. Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate, you know, being chosen and being on here as well. Thank you again.

[32:41]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.

[00:00]Brian Jackson: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

Today, we're joined by Rzan Yunus, a Rice Business Professional MBA graduate from the class of 2017, who used her MBA to make a thoughtful pivot from insurance into consulting. As a first-generation American, Rzan credits her upbringing for her work ethic and drive. Those values carried her from an early career in insurance to pursuing an MBA while working full-time and into her next professional chapter.

In this episode, we talk about her career journey, what motivated her pivot, and how Rice Business helped her make the transition. Hi, Rzan. Thank you so much for joining us on Owl Have You Know. How are you feeling about being here today on a podcast?

[00:51]Rzan Yunus: I'm very excited. It's my first podcast, hopefully not my last. We'll see how this goes.

[00:57]Brian Jackson: Pressure's on both of us. It's not either-or, right?

[00:59]Rzan Yunus: Right.

[01:00]Brian Jackson: One thing I had, kind of, done a bit of research on you, and one thing that really stuck out was your background. Your dad was in academia. It looked like you spent a lot of your childhood exploring different college campuses. What was that experience like for you?

[01:13]Rzan Yunus: That's a great question. So, as you may or may not know, Brian, I wasn't born in the United States. My story begins in the United States at two. I was born in Saudi Arabia, where my family would really teach me what ambition actually means. My dad decided to make a life-changing decision and follow an American dream that shaped everything that followed. You know, he had a very stable job, a very comfortable life, two young children, but he also had this vision of wanting to become this college professor. So, he made a decision to leave it all behind and start over in a different country that he'd only ever seen in the movies.

I moved to the States when I was two. I had my third birthday here, and we grew up on college campuses while my dad pursued this American dream. So, he really showed me what perseverance and sacrifice meant for a longer-term vision. When he was doing his Ph.D., I was old enough to understand what he was sacrificing. You know, we were committing to living in this two-bedroom apartment in residential on-campus housing. There were seven of us in a two-bedroom apartment, and it was, I mean, it was very fun. I have a lot of fond memories from it.

But I also remember just, like, even though my dad was so busy, you know, he was taking a full workload, he was working all of these jobs to make ends meet. I just remember him being so present and so engaged when I grew up. So, it wasn't just like I knew how much he was sacrificing. I knew how hard he was working, but also how present and available he was for us during my childhood.

And so, I remember him walking across the stage getting his Ph.D. diploma, and it was such a big moment for us, for our family, because we really did it together. And I remember me and my siblings pulling together all of, like, our little coins from our piggy bank and taking him out to KFC, which to us was, like, this huge, big, fancy restaurant. The first place he took us with his first paycheck in America, and it was such, like, an accomplishment for us.

And I feel like, you know, when people ask you, you know, where you come from, those are the memories that I really feel like make me unique in who I am. It's that journey with my dad and then the journey on all those different college campuses and, you know, what he's been able to accomplish so far.

[03:49]Brian Jackson: Yeah, so taking that risk, you've got a family of seven people, right? And folks are dependent on you. So, it's, one, a huge risk, and he had the ambition to back it, but then it's the family trust that he's going to get it done. Like, what did that teach you about relationships?

[04:05]Rzan Yunus: I think it's a collective sacrifice, and who is in your corner really makes a big difference on if you succeed. It wasn't just my dad, it was my mom, it was us, like me and my four younger siblings. And so, it was really like a joint decision that we all made. And so, to me, family is very important. Who you have in your corner is the biggest difference, I would say.

[04:33]Brian Jackson: It's a support system, right? And it's the people who believe in that dream that you have. So, I mean, how incredible, to have made it. I guess, looking back now, did he talk about his expectations of what the American Dream was and what it is, like, was it totally different before, you know, actually achieving it?

[04:52]Rzan Yunus: The one thing that my parents have always instilled in us is that you're able to really shape who you are here. It's not about your family, where you come from. It is what you make. And it is like the hard work and the preparation, and probably a little bit of luck, being in the right place at the right time, but taking advantage of those opportunities. I think it's the resilience, and I think also the commitment to education, and having that is really what defines that American dream and what I really am so grateful for, that he's given us and shown us that it's successful.

[05:39]Brian Jackson: Now, so that example of hard work and then having them support you, you started your career at AIG, and you were going through the analyst rotation program. So, I feel like with rotations, a lot of broad exposure, a lot of quick turns. With that experience, where were you thinking of heading with your career, and did it go the way you thought it would?

[05:58]Rzan Yunus: So, the rotational program was great in that I was able to see a lot of different parts of an organization. And then when I landed in the actuarial department working for the Chief Actuary, it really made me realize a few things. AIG, being a very large and complex organization, you have to learn how to navigate those. It's not you make a decision, and you complete that decision, or you do it on your own. It takes a collective, collaborative, cross-functional effort. So, I feel like that was one thing that I learned really quickly.

I also learned that, you know, being in a very technical department and being, you know, I did a rotation in finance, and I did a rotation in, like, product development. A lot of it is based on grounding your assumptions in data. You have to be very, very thorough in making up for, I would say, lack of expertise and lack of experience. If you let the data speak to you and you're presented in a way that's easy to understand and simple for executives to understand, the “so what,” that really gets you so far.

[07:08]Brian Jackson: While you're at AIG learning how to communicate to executives, are there any tips or tricks? Like, when you're taking information that's so granular up to the C-suite, you know, the journey to getting it there, to actually making it digestible. Any secrets there for us?

[07:23]Rzan Yunus: I would say that it's very important to keep in mind executives are very busy, and they also have a lot of competing priorities that are vying for their attention. And so, when you’re putting together the “so what” for an executive, it's about making it so simple and so digestible, which is a lot harder than it sounds, right? If you've got six to eight weeks of analysis, how do you boil it up into three key takeaways that an executive will see, one, see, two, understand, and three, be moved and influenced to act? Because they have a lot of competing priorities. They have a lot of pressure. 

And so, it's about tailoring what your message is to them and their priorities and getting it to them in a way where they understand it and understand the ask for them, and they're compelled to do it. So, keep it simple. You know, a lot of the times I'll tell people, if you can't explain it to your parents, who aren't in your field, it's not simple enough. And then really focus on, if you were sitting in their shoes, what would be important to you? For example, if you're a Chief Revenue Officer, what is the most important thing? If you're a Chief Financial Officer, what is the most important thing about what you're trying to present and what you're trying to tell?

[08:49]Brian Jackson: Yeah, so it's a story of, like, why this? Why now?

[08:51]Rzan Yunus: Exactly.

[08:52]Brian Jackson: Yeah. I've recently done some decks, and they were 60 slides long, and I was told I need to simplify the material, which, great feedback. And so, that information became an eight-page deck.

[09:04]Rzan Yunus: Right.

[09:05]Brian Jackson: And it mattered. Then they could understand, why are we making action?

[09:08]Rzan Yunus: I've had a mentor tell me that when you open a slide, the first slide, every slide should punch you in the face. That's the impact that you want to make. They're like, "Oh, okay. Got it." You want them to visually understand what you're saying and feel an urgency to respond.

[09:29]Brian Jackson: Got it. Well, I'm going to take that down. I got to figure out how I'm going to start punching people in the face. Work's going to get incredibly violent.

[09:35]Rzan Yunus: It's a virtual punch. It's not a physical punch.

[09:38]Brian Jackson: A virtual. I mean, in your role at AIG, you already were learning executive communication, how to simplify material. Why did you get to the point of, ″Okay, an MBA is going to take me to my next level?" What brought you there?

[09:52]Rzan Yunus: I was thinking about an MBA because I really wanted to develop a broader framework for understanding business strategy, organizational dynamics, and how to lead across functions. I wanted to understand not just life insurance, but how different industries solve similar problems. I wanted to understand how to think about how to transform a business. And more importantly, I think I realized that my next chapter wasn't going to require a different skill set than the one I developed, but it was just that it would build upon the skills that I'd already had, and about acquiring the frameworks and the community I needed to make that transition in my career.

You know, my experience at AIG had really given me technical depth and real navigation… organizational navigation experience. But what it hadn't given me necessarily was, like, a peer group of people who were at the same stage in their career with similar transitions they were contemplating. And it hadn't given me exposure to different industries and how organizations approach different business challenges.

[11:04]Brian Jackson: And you did the Professional Evening Program, right?

[11:07]Rzan Yunus: I did.

[11:07]Brian Jackson: So, you're working full time and then in the evenings going to school and finding some capacity to continue to learn. What was that like?

[11:16]Rzan Yunus: It was really hard. I was working 50 hours a week at AIG. I was commuting to the campus two to three times a week during the week. I was studying before I went to work. I was studying after I went to work. It was very difficult, but it was also the most rewarding and fulfilling experience, and it truly changed my life. Like, I wouldn't be sitting here today with the success that I've had, with any of it, without Rice.

[11:49]Brian Jackson: You wouldn't be on the Owl Have You Know podcast for alumni, so...

[11:51]Rzan Yunus: That is true. So… And I mean, I chose Rice because it had, you know, the number one Ranking for the entrepreneurship program in the country. And I feel like, you know, just based on my dad being, I think, an entrepreneur, like he really pivoted, started a life and a self from nothing in a country he knew nothing about. I feel like that grounding and that framework for an academic program is something that you could always use. When you learn entrepreneurship, you learn to hustle. You learn to think like an owner or take accountability, to be resourceful, to drive results.

I really appreciated Rice's pathways with other organizations and other companies, particularly consulting. I knew I wanted to explore that eventually and knew that they recruit based on certain programs. And then, I… My favorite thing about Rice, and when I went and visited, is the team and peer atmosphere. You know, you spend so much time at work, but you also spend so much time in this program. And the people that I met, and the camaraderie and the collaboration, and the fact that you rarely ever achieve anything alone in life. I really wanted to be surrounded with people that were smart and hardworking and capable and collaborative and supportive.

Very similar to the support system that I think everybody needs in life to be successful. So, their cohort-based model, Rice's cohort-based model, especially in the Professional MBA Program, especially with people who are going through it the same way that you're going through it, I feel like creates the foundation for these lifelong friendships and relationships and community that, coupled with the entrepreneurship and the analytic frameworks, as well as the consulting pieces, really made it a no-brainer for me.

[13:50]Brian Jackson: While we're there, it's like the value of the program is… It’s really your peers. It's who's working through the case with you and the analysis that we're doing through Socratic seminar, right?

[14:01]Rzan Yunus: Yeah.

[14:02]Brian Jackson: And then after it, it's, of course, the value of the alumni group. And that is something I always continue to tap into and continue to find additional value in my career.

[14:11]Rzan Yunus: When I was thinking about going to get my MBA and when I was thinking about coming to Rice, you know, what I heard from alumni and what I heard from the staff was that these are really people that you would be friends with your whole life. That's something that I wanted, and that is something that I have. 10 years after graduation, many of my best friends are my Rice MBA classmates. You know, I recently attended a former classmate's wedding where his entire wedding party was Rice MBA alumni, me included. I'm in a monthly Mahjong club with my Rice classmates.

You know, these aren't transactional networking connections. It's friendships formed in late-night study sessions and early-morning study sessions. It's, you know, formed on a study abroad trip where we went to China, and it's been one of the most valuable aspects of my Rice experience.

[15:04]Brian Jackson: Well, the Mahjong club is incredibly unique.

[15:07]Rzan Yunus: You know, it's very funny to get a bunch of former Rice MBA alumni who love to learn. And we picked Mahjong because it was all the rage, and we get together once a month, and everybody comes, and they're ready to play.

[15:22]Brian Jackson: Oh, that's awesome. I've recently started to learn, and one of my mom's friends from abroad, she's teaching me. I'm still a novice, but at some point, we may want to play.

[15:32]Rzan Yunus: We should. You can come to our Mahjong club.

[15:34]Brian Jackson: Okay. I'm going to accept the invite. Give me some time to study up, but I'll be there. So, if you had to make the pitch to somebody considering Rice, you know, what would you say would be, I guess, the pushover point to make the decision for yes?

[15:50]Rzan Yunus: I would say just do it. If it's a consideration, if it's something you're thinking about, there is no reason not to. I'll just tell you this, my two years in the program, and I think I said this earlier, it really changed my life. I am becoming and am the person now that I never thought I could have been 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I mean, the program is hard. It's a top MBA program for a reason. Balancing school and your personal life is difficult. Working full-time while earning an MBA is not a casual commitment, but it's the most important step that you can take to invest in yourself. Surround yourself with people that reflect the ambition and the dedication that is contagious.

You know, if you're going to do an MBA, and this is something that I've given advice to, if you're thinking about doing an MBA, you should do an MBA. The value in the MBA is not about the prestige of the school. It is the value, as you said, in the network and in the community. Like, yes, you'll learn how to do a case study, and yes, you'll learn how to build really pretty presentations, but it's about the people that you're building with and growing with and pivoting with. And they'll become your advisors and friends and confidants and be in your corner every step of your way.

I just think that that, coupled with the academic side… And I will say, Brian, I think the confidence you get from accomplishing something so difficult, from walking into a strategy class at 6:15 at night and you're exhausted from a hard day at work, and you're put in a group with five other people you barely know and you're supposed to crack this case together, and getting through that on the other side and knowing that you can do that. That confidence that you can figure anything out is immeasurable, is invaluable, I would say, and it really carries forward.

And, you know, you get through that, the hardest thing you've ever done, and then the next thing you're like, ″Well, this wouldn't be so bad." And you feel like you can say yes to bigger and better and better things because, you know, if you could do this, then you could do anything.

[18:14]Brian Jackson: You're right, and it does make you feel that way. It gives you this muscle of, like, ″Okay, I can take on more." And you did that in your career. You had talked about, like, your father's journey, and it was entrepreneurial, doing something totally new and taking all that risk. You discovered your pivot and moved from insurance with AIG over to consulting. How did you know that that was the pathway and where you wanted to push yourself into something new?

[18:41]Rzan Yunus: So, I chose consulting because I loved the variety of work that they got to do. You know, in every year, and this was something that really attracted me to it when I was meeting with people from Alvarez & Marsal, you work in different industries and different projects. You know, one year you might be doing, you know, a transformation for a media company, the next working on a financial services operational improvement, the following year on, like, a manufacturing cost reduction. And I think that continuous learning really appealed to me.

[19:19]Brian Jackson: I mean, making the pivot's hard, right? And you're switching to something totally different. And, like you're saying, each client has different problems, different industries. You know, how do you make that transition?

[19:31]Rzan Yunus: It is funny, you know, they always have that saying, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it, right? So, it wasn't. I'd only ever worked at AIG. I worked there for six years, and it was the place that I've really grown up and believed in me and gave me opportunities that, you know, I never thought possible. You know, if I would've told the little girl who was watching her dad walk across the stage, like, you're going to go work at this big company where there's 40 floors, and you're going to be able to travel, and you're going to meet with executives and pitch to them different ideas, she would've been like, you're crazy.

And I got that experience at AIG, and so it wasn't a casual decision to leave, because I already had such a great role. But I was really looking for that variety, and my classmates were really instrumental in making that transition. You know, they give you permission to think big and to think broad, and they're doing such cool things. Like, they're interviewing for these big tech or investment banking or nonprofit or start… I mean, they're doing all of these different things, and they are people who make bold moves and make you feel emboldened, and you can do anything as well. It's all about who you surround yourself with. You know, being around people who made intentional career decisions, made the decision, makes me feel less risky. And that made it feel less risky, I would say, because everybody was doing it. And the MBA, I feel like, gives you, like I said, the confidence to succeed in a high-pressure, team-based environment, which consulting is. So, I spent two years proving it to myself, right? In the Professional MBA program. It's like this is another step in that journey.

And I think that the last piece is that the work in the MBA that we talked about, the case studies, the frameworks, the competitive analysis, it gives you a common language with consulting firms. You're already speaking the language. You already understand how it works. I would say it gives you an advantage that way.

[21:33]Brian Jackson: And you said when… I mean, with business school, it's so totally different. Like, okay, law school is very competitive, and all of my classmates, if we talked about offers, jobs, opportunities, it, kind of, just made you feel bad.

[21:44]Rzan Yunus: Because you're all going for the same type of job.

[21:47]Brian Jackson: Exactly. I mean, hearing it, and I'm like, ″Oh man, he's getting this offer. I'm just, you know, what's going on?" But in business school, you would hear people make these shifts, and it was actually like a story of promise. It was like, ″Oh, if they can do it,″ then, ″Oh, let me try something different." And they were then examples of success, and it was like somebody you could learn from, and they were happy to share.

[22:09]Rzan Yunus: Like, we were all reviewing each other's resumes. We were all prepping, even if we were all going for the same job, right? We would all meet the day before and quiz each other on our resumes and all of that. And it was such a collaborative environment and such an environment where you really feel, why not?

[22:27]Brian Jackson: Yeah, so I guess, to anyone who's in the program now, the advice is support each other.

[22:33]Rzan Yunus: Right.

[22:34]Brian Jackson: Share information, work together. There's plenty to go around.

[22:39]Rzan Yunus: You can't have a scarcity mindset. You create more, you give more, and more will come back. And so, it is, every single person is a representation of you because y'all are a part of the same program. You're a part of the same cohort. So, if somebody lands this very prestigious job, that's a win for all of us, and that's a win for the MBA, and that's a win for the Rice program.

[23:03]Brian Jackson: Absolutely. That's, I think, the best way to characterize it. Okay, so today you're consulting at Alvarez & Marsal. You're a senior director. What type of work are you leading?

[23:14]Rzan Yunus: So, the way that I explain it to my mom. Because my mom, she calls me probably every three to six months, and she's like, ″So what do you do? Who do you work for?" So, the way that I explain it to my mom and the way I explain it to my daughter is that I help companies and people solve problems that they either don't have the time to figure out, don't have the expertise to figure out, or don't have the people to figure out.

And then my favorite thing about Alvarez & Marsal, or A&M, is that it's not just a, "Hey, we think you, Company XYZ, should do this, and we're going to leave." It's, "Hey, this is what we think you should do, and we are going to be next to you implementing it day by day, and we are going to do this together." It's an action-oriented, it's a roll-up-your-sleeves, get-things-done culture. It's very spirit of service as well. You want to do what's best for your client, and helping them through their time of need is the piece that I really appreciate, and it keeps me coming back for more.

[24:20]Brian Jackson: And I guess it's unique, too. Like, you're actually starting a project but then seeing it through, you know, implementation. So, you're learning what worked, what didn't work, and then you apply those lessons learned to your next client, which only makes you better.

[24:33]Rzan Yunus: Yeah. Typically, you do an assessment, you put together your recommendations, and that's one piece of work, and that's one piece of challenges. Taking those initiatives and taking those recommendations and implementing them in a real company with their own culture and people and history and priorities, that's a whole different set of challenges. And the only way to do it is implement it side by side with your client.

Do good work every day. Show up with your best foot forward. One of my favorite parts of consulting is that I really see the impact of my work in a short period of time. It is, you know, three months, six months, nine months, a year, you're either implementing a new software that is taking a bunch of different, you know, manufacturing companies and putting them all in the same platform so that they're able to work more efficiently together, and that way you're changing their business forever, or you're optimizing a distribution company's network. It's just you see the work that you put in in such a tangible way that I just can't get enough.

[25:41]Brian Jackson: In your experience, and, you know, as you're, kind of, facing each of these, I guess I'm going to call them problem sets, because I'm assuming your clients call you, "We've got a problem." You know, what skills do you think really move the needle that you have?

[25:54]Rzan Yunus: So, I think companies at their core are made up of people. And your ability to connect and understand and then work with them to influence and implement change is critical. So, there's a people component to it, and I think as a part of that, there's a listening aspect and an understanding aspect. And then I think another component of it is you have to understand, like, at a micro level, for lack of a better term, this company is made up of each individual person, and then they collectively… And you have to win the hearts and minds to move the needle there.

But then you also have to understand how does that company make money? What are the inner workings of this company that drive it forward? What are the organizational financial priorities, and all of that? And so, if you can combine those two and really understand how the company works as an organization and what they do for the world, plus how the each individual person contributes to that, and tie those together, I think putting those two components together are what make projects successful.

[27:12]Brian Jackson: I feel like consultants are like lawyers when they show up. People typically don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling. It's a, "Here comes a riff. Here come mega changes. They're not going to, you know, understand what we do." To be honest, that's been my experience. So, how do you, you know, first approach that and then also work to build this level of trust between you and the client's employees?

[27:37]Rzan Yunus: Yeah, nobody really likes to see me coming.

[27:39]Brian Jackson: No.

[27:41]Rzan Yunus: I think the way that you build trust is by showing through your words and actions that you are on their side. You are there to achieve a goal. You are there to make their life easier or better. They can rely on you to get things done. You're there to help them. And so, you can do that by building… And I think it just takes a little bit of time. It does. But I think that one of the things that people get a read on very quickly is if you are authentic, and your intentions and your questions.

And so, if people feel… I know that it's not a word… We’re into the thinking and the doing, but the feeling, if they feel like you're asking questions to get a better understanding of their problems and that you are willing to do what it takes to solve those problems for them long after I'm there, me personally, I'm there, then I think that their willingness to open up and help and go to bat for you goes up exponentially.

[28:55]Brian Jackson: It's intentional questions, right? You're asking them for the purpose of understanding what they do and why they do it, what's driving them, right? And that effort and that time into it shows you have a genuine, authentic interest in them.

[29:06]Rzan Yunus: Yeah, I think that is how you do it, and it's one day at a time. You don't take it personally. And then, you know, it means a lot when your client speaks so highly of you and the work that you've done, and, you know, they are successful because of the work that I've done. It's mutual. Like, we can only be successful together, if that makes sense.

[29:32]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, along the path, have you had a mentor or someone who's been influential in your career and, you know, helping you build this persona of authenticity as you're developing with clients?

[29:44]Rzan Yunus: There's so many. Like, I can't name just one. You know, from my time at AIG, like, I really feel that every interaction, every opportunity is there for you to learn, and so you should take advantage and learn what you can, right? I think that it is from every single project, every single boss, every single client, I have learned more than one thing to take forward. When I was growing up, it wasn't necessarily celebrated to be different. And so, I didn't really lean into that growing up at all.

You know, we wanted to be the same as everybody else, even though I had different food in my lunchbox, even though sometimes, like, you know, growing up, I would slip and say something in a different language, in Arabic. And then my time at AIG, and then leaning into, you know, part of being successful in consulting, like I said, is being authentic and being yourself.

And so, I think those experiences, you asked me about, you know, mentors, for bringing my authentic self to work, it's other people who really open up and share and are themselves. And that is whenever I think that you can make real, sustainable change, is when everybody is being honest.

[31:10]Brian Jackson: And that culture of honesty and authenticity and respecting it and seeking it, that is what, you know, is the difference. So, it's also, I think, incredibly hard to have a whole part of you that you're hiding and shielding and trying to navigate and grow in this world, while also concealing, is...

[31:30]Rzan Yunus: Yeah, very difficult.

[31:31]Brian Jackson: Very. And people sense it, right?

[31:33]Rzan Yunus: They do, and I think it really impacts, like, your effectiveness, but also your happiness.

[31:38]Brian Jackson: Yeah. So, with your current work, is there a particular project or, you know, a result from a client that you're particularly excited about?

[31:48]Rzan Yunus: You know, I get asked a lot, Brian, what's your favorite project or what's the project you don't like? For me, they each have their memories. Like, I remember, for example, when I feel like COVID impacted everybody a little bit differently. For us in consulting, it was very much, ″Okay, how do we pivot?" Because we were used to being on site with the client, building that rapport in person, building the rapport in the teams that we were working alongside, in person.

And to go from doing that to doing that fully remotely is something that I think the entire world had to adjust to. But I just remember that being a really big adjustment. And so, I was on this team where we were implementing a software to help them standardize and manage their… It was an accounts payable software. We were doing it all virtually and remotely, even though the majority of the team was in Houston, and then the client was as well.

And so, I think that the thing that I was most proud of is that you're spending all this time on the phone, you're trying to figure out how to use Teams, you're trying to figure out how to use file share, that we were able to implement the software in the time that we had said we would. We were able to build the relationship and the credibility with the client. We were able to build such a bond on this project team within Alvarez & Marsal, within A&M. And the ability to do that remotely was amazing.

I think every project I've done, I've been so proud of the results because you are doing it hand in hand, very similarly to the Rice MBA. You're on this team with other people, you're given this problem to figure out, you have to do it in what does not sound like a reasonable time, never does, and you're navigating all these trials and tribulations.

And another project that I've done post-COVID and doing a transformation of a company where, if we weren't able to take the costs out, they would cease to exist. And so, there's a lot of, you know, the team that you're working alongside with the client understands that, and we understand that. And every decision that we're making has such a heavy implication. It has such a big impact. And so, you want to make sure that you're able to not let them down. They trusted you to help them through this tough time, and that you were able to accomplish that with them side by side.

And so, it is… The people aspect is my favorite part. Seeing the accomplishment at the end is my favorite part. You know, everybody's always like, ″I always want to know what I'm doing next,” and I say, “That's so much fun." You don't know. You don't know where you're going next. You don't know if you're going to work in, like, an agriculture company or a different industry or a different type of company or a different type of problem. And so, I really enjoy the projects while they're happening. I enjoy when we wrap them up, and I enjoy starting the new one as well.

[35:24]Brian Jackson: Yeah, so it's always the mystery of what's to come. So, I guess it keeps it interesting. So, looking ahead in your career, are you going to stay in a role where you continue to have these continuous opportunities to learn? Is there something you're excited about, or do you have another pivot, uh, in the future?

[35:39]Rzan Yunus: I loved my time, and I continue to love my time at A&M, or Alvarez & Marsal. There's plenty of A&Ms out there.

I'm so proud of the work I've done and the teams that I've built, and the relationships that I've made. And I know that the opportunities at my firm, I feel like the sky's the limit. You know, one of my favorite things about A&M is the entrepreneurial mindset. You know, I was looking for that at Rice, which I feel like I found, that groundwork, and then I found that at A&M as well, that entrepreneurial mindset where you can be the CEO of your own career and really bet on yourself and make things happen.

So, that's the work side. And then, in addition to the work, you know, I've got, as I mentioned, four siblings — younger siblings — and my parents. You know, us being the only members of our family really in the United States, we're really close, and it is something that I don't take lightly. And I'm committed to being there for them and supporting my siblings' journeys and their careers and honoring really the sacrifice that my parents made, that they left their families to provide a better one for their own. And I continue to pay that forward now.

Now, I also want to be the best wife and the best stepmother, and the best mom to two pups that I can be. You know, that relationship is really important to me and is as important as my career achievements, and maybe more, because those are the ones that, they’re going to be with me for my whole life. I hope so. And I think the other piece that I really have taken to heart, and I've really seen, is that when you… You can't pour into others unless you pour into yourself first. So, very focused on my own physical, mental, spiritual well-being. You know, you can't sustain a high performance and demanding roles and being there for everybody else like you want to be without putting that same focus into yourself.

They're not luxuries. I feel like they're necessities, and I really constantly have to remind myself that. I’m surrounding myself with people who keep reminding me that it's not just about my future goals. Aren't just about career advancement, although that is a big one. It's about building a life where my work… I have a lot of meaning, and I feel like I'm accomplishing a lot. My relationships within work and outside of work are genuine. My family feels supported, and I'm taking care of myself so I can take care of those.

[38:12]Brian Jackson: Well, I have no doubt you'll be busy, and I'm sure there'll be a ton of pressure. Every time in this interview, it keeps coming to me. I had a colleague quote it to me last night. He said, "Pressure is a privilege." And I just keep thinking about your experience, your dad's experience. All of it is high pressure, and what a privilege.

[38:27]Rzan Yunus: I agree. You know, I think about that all the time. You know, somebody was like, you know, on my current project, they're like, "Well, you're under a lot of pressure." And I was like, "Right, but pressure makes diamonds."

[38:37]Brian Jackson: It does, and it's a true privilege to be under that. And to have that result.

[38:42]Rzan Yunus: I feel like I keep coming back to this, but for me, it’s… I saw firsthand what my dad was able to accomplish, and then building on that with what I'm able to accomplish. And it's just, I agree, it's such a privilege to be in these, like, leadership roles, working on these complex business problems and doing all of that, because who knows where I would've been otherwise.

[39:09]Brian Jackson: And that experience just compounds, and we grow, and it's what it's all for. Rzan, this has been really fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing your journey, talking about your experience at Rice. I really appreciate you joining me.

[39:24]Rzan Yunus: I really appreciate you having me. Thank you.

[39:29]Brian Jackson: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcast. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Brian Jackson, and Maya Pomroy.