Everybody's Got to Eat feat. Turner Hoff ’13

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot Series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

[00:13] Maya: On today's episode of Owl Have You Know, we introduce you to Turner Hoff, who came to Rice Business to sharpen his finance and real estate acumen, but discovered his destiny was something completely different. He shares a story of initially following in his grandfather and father's footsteps, but recognizing his true passion, lay in entrepreneurship. We talk about his pivot from building and flipping homes to being an architect for a food tech startup, disrupting the industry by focusing on sustainability, and offering the billion-dollar market something the others don't.

On today's episode of Owl Have You Know, we have full-time MBA, Turner Hoff, who graduated in 2013. Turner, we're thrilled to have you here today.

[00:59] Turner: It's a pleasure. I appreciate it.

[01:01] Maya: So, you have had quite a pivot from finance and real estate to entrepreneurship, and it's been a really remarkable journey, all the background that I read about you. I actually want to buy all of your products. But let's start from the beginning. So, you came to Rice after graduating from San Diego. You come from a family of finance and real estate folks, and also entrepreneurs and architects. And that's really the background in which you were raised. So, both of your grandfathers were architects, correct?

[01:35] Turner: That's right, yep.

[01:37] Maya: And your dad was in real estate and in finance.

[01:39] Turner: In real estate, he started on the construction side. So, he grew up in Houston as well, went to Texas A&M, studied construction management, was a general contractor for a long time, now working in development as largely a construction consultant on new and existing deals within their portfolio.

[01:59] Maya: And so, that's…where you were trying to follow in your family's footsteps…is that something that you grew up with, you know, you, sort of, felt like that's what I'm going to do when I grow up?

[02:08] Turner: Yeah, absolutely. It's, kind of, funny actually. I grew up idolizing my dad. I mean, still look up to him. He's probably one of my best friends. And because I idolized him as much as I did, I grew up wanting to get into construction. And we've commiserated over him sharing a similar experience where his dad was an architect. He looked up to his dad. He wanted to be an architect. And when he told his dad that, his dad said, "No, no, no, no, you don't want to be an architect, you don't make any money as an architect. Go into construction." And my dad said the same thing to me. I said, "Well, I want to go into construction." He said, "No, no, no, Turner, you don't make any money in construction. You need to go into the finance side of the industry."

And so, that was really the plan, was that I was going to study the finance side of real estate and gain some professional experience in that field, deepen my expertise and understanding, and then, eventually, work with my dad in some capacity. I mean, having grown up around it, it certainly was entrenched in everything that I knew.

[03:09] Maya: And so, you went, you went to San Diego, which, by the way, amazing weather. I don't blame you. I would've wanted to go there, too. And you got a BBA concentrating in finance and real estate. And then, you came back home to Houston and flipped houses with your dad for about two years.

[03:25] Turner: That's right, yeah. So, I graduated in 2009 with a degree in finance in real estate, which, as you all know, 2009 was probably the perfect time to be graduating with that degree.

[03:37] Maya: That time, yeah.

[03:38] Turner: Both finance... Yeah, both finance and real estate were just booming. I took that time as an opportunity to move back to Houston and work with my dad. And we'd put together a little business plan to buy and sell homes in certain pockets in Houston. And so, I did that for a couple of years before applying and attending Rice.

[03:55] Maya: So, I have friends that are in that business as well. And you certainly have to have a vision, right? And then, there's all these shows on HGTV of Flip or Flop and everything else. Was it like that? Or, is that just a ruse?

[04:09] Turner: I mean, it's a lot of effort for the return you get at a very small scale. And I think, at the time, my dad's experience was all in construction and development, too. And he's done residential, commercial, multifamily, but there just wasn't a lot going on. And so, we used this as an opportunity to work together in some capacity. Having grown up with an architect as a father, he was the one with the vision for it. He can walk into a home and just immediately understand what the space needs and what it's going to look like. I don't have that skill set. I need it to be in front of me, and then I can adapt and modify from there. But our skill sets worked nicely together. I had, I had studied finance and real estate in undergrad, and so I had some experience with financial modeling, specifically within real estate.

And we had put together a business plan and strategy and tried to execute on it for a couple of years. And it worked. It was, it was effective. We did well. But it wasn't something either of us wanted to be doing in the long term and we weren't trying to grow a business out of it. It was, I think, just an opportunity to spend some time together and work together. And it was, I mean, it was a lot of fun.

[05:21] Maya: Well, that is special that you got to spend some time with your dad. But you also recognized that there was something more — you were missing something and you needed something more. So, you came to Rice to get this MBA. So, why did you choose Rice? Was it location, or was it something that you grew up knowing about that you always wanted to be a part of? What was really the push to come to Rice?

[05:44] Turner: Yeah. I mean, I think, growing up in Houston, I'm sure a lot of Houstonians can relate. Rice just has an aura about it. It's really well-known in the South, where the joke is the “Ivy League of the South.” And I just grew up having a lot of respect for the university as a whole and as an institution within Houston. And it was actually the only school that I applied to. So, I had effectively all of my eggs in one basket. I think having the ties to Houston and the network and the community, I also, during school, lived with my dad for those two years, and for that reason, were, at least partially, responsible for those being, like, two of the best years of my life.

[06:31] Maya: That's awesome. I bet he would love to hear you say that. That's really special. So, you studied real estate and finance for two years. You got your MBA. And then, you found yourself in Washington, D.C. You took a position with the Carlyle Group to do real estate and finance. Why did you choose D.C.? Or, did D.C. choose you, kind of, like Rice chose you as well?

[06:57] Turner: Yeah, I think more that D.C. chose me. So, when I graduated in 2013, there are clearly defined tracks for those going into investment banking and consulting. And a lot of my classmates had job offers going into the second year. And that just isn't typical within the real estate industry. I think, especially at the graduate level, it tends to be fairly reactive. And so, I was going into second semester of the second year with no job offers. And then, in April or May, I started to get some traction. And then one led to two, and then two led to six. And so, I found myself in this really fortunate position of having a few offers to choose between. And I knew that I didn't want to be in Houston long-term. I like exposing myself to new geographies, new culture, immersing myself in an environment where I don't know anyone. And D.C. checked a lot of those boxes as, of course, Carlyle being perfectly aligned with, at the time, what I thought I wanted to be doing long-term.

[08:01] Maya: Yeah, like, you were in Houston, and then San Diego, and then back to Houston, and then to D.C. So, you've definitely covered quite a bit of ground in the United States. So, while you were at the Carlyle Group, it was a fairly rigorous position. Tell me about what happened to you. Because you met the love of your life, and then made a complete pivot to something completely different. So, tell me about when you met her.

[08:27] Turner: Yeah. So, we met in November of 2013. I moved to D.C. in June — five, six months after moving here. And we just, we got along great from the beginning and had a lot in common, commiserated over food, even though, at least externally, the way that we approach eating would be perceived as completely contradictory. She's been vegan, vegetarian, some combination of the two for 15-plus years at this point. And the terrible joke that we make is that I've been not vegan my whole life. But, we're both active, enjoy being outdoors, care a lot about what it is that we're eating and how it fuels the rest of our life. And so, we ultimately realized that the common ground that we shared, despite having two completely different dietary perspectives, for lack of a better term, that there was actually a lot of commonality between the two.

[09:24] Maya: So, Ariane and you met in November of 2013 and decided that you are going to do this food tech startup called Vegetable and Butcher. And I think that that was around the time that there were quite a few competitors. I remember seeing all of the competitors of the home delivery, fresh meals for busy professionals and for working moms and those types of folks that really despise going to the grocery store and really just don't have the time or the desire to cook but still want fresh, healthy, clean meals. So, tell me about that day that you decided to do that.

[10:05] Turner: I don't know that there was one specific day in particular, but as you alluded to earlier, I was working long hours as is fairly typical in the finance industry, especially when you're younger in your career. She was in school and working two jobs. And so, much of our free time was limited to Sunday. And we would go to the farmer's market. You can't get everything you need at the farmer's market, so you end up going to the grocery store after. And then, the rest of our day was spent effectively meal-prepping for the entire week. And by the time you're done, you look up and it's 7:00 p.m., and we've spent our entire day shopping, cooking, cleaning. And it was just exhausting.

And when I moved to D.C., I was surprised that a concept similar to Snap Kitchen, which is really popular in the South, didn't exist here. They're small retail footprints, about 400 square feet on the low end, maybe 1,000 square feet on the high end. And they sell fully prepared, ready-to-eat meals, that you essentially grocery shop and pick up prepared meals for the week. And there wasn't anything like that here. And we had talked about it but didn't think much of it. I was early in my career and invested in my time at Carlyle. And we really just brushed it off. But I think the pain point continued to grow. And you had mentioned some of the services were becoming really popular at the time. So, meal kit companies were, in particular, becoming popular, the Blue Aprons and HelloFreshes of the world. And we had tried those services and ultimately realized a couple of things. One, they fundamentally solve a different problem. So, they deliver a box of ingredients to you with a recipe card.

[11:47] Maya: You still have to put in all that time to do that.

[11:51] Turner: Exactly.

[11:52] Maya: No, I've ordered from them. I'm like, wait a minute, like, this all looks great, but I don't have the 30 minutes, which is always longer than the 30 minutes, let's be honest. Because I'm not, I just don’t ... I don't know how to cook.

[12:02] Turner: That was our experience, too. And we're certainly not alone in that because we had a number of conversations. So, the pain point, as you mentioned, the recipe card says it takes 30 minutes. Well, maybe for a trained chef. But it took us 60 to 90, and then we're still cleaning.

[12:17] Maya: Yes, the cleaning, the cleaning part, yes. Nobody talks about that in terms of the time that's invested, is the cleaning.

[12:25] Turner: Yeah. And then, we started to feel just wasteful. You're getting shipped a cardboard box once a week. Every ingredient is wrapped individually in plastic or cellophane packaging. And you just start to accumulate waste. And as we experimented with some of these other services, at the time, there were a couple that were doing fully prepared meals delivered, but there really wasn't anything that aligned with our values and how we wanted to be eating and if we were doing it on our own, the types of partners and vendors and purveyors that we would be working with. I think it just got to a point where we, perhaps, naively thought that we could do it better. And the frustration had grown to a point where we just... we wanted to solve our own problem.

[13:14] Maya: So, how did you start?

[13:15] Turner: We talked about it for, probably, a year and a half. In reflecting, it's, kind of interesting. We formed the legal entity for Vegetable and Butcher back in 2014.

[13:27] Maya: But didn't start until 2016, right?

[13:30] Turner: Yeah. So, we spent a couple of years. And our weekends, our little bit of free time, we used to go to the Portrait Gallery, and they've got a little cafe and market, kind of, in the center of the Portrait Gallery. And we would sit in there on the weekends and put thoughts on paper, essentially drafting what would be the equivalent of a business plan. And as we started to connect with friends and mentors and others in the space, we got interests. We weren't really planning to launch the business early on. It was just something we were doing for fun as a way to spend time together. And it started to get traction among folks who do a little bit of angel investing. And it all really, kind of, snowballed from there.

[14:12] Maya: Part of what your model is, is sustainability, better sourcing. You support 30 local farms, use only pasture-raised and grass-fed animal proteins. You do have a vegan and a vegetarian option. So, you have, like, better nutrition. You've got 40-plus super foods. You don't use refined sugar or artificial ingredients, which is, I mean, that's phenomenal. I don't know how you do that. You've got a door-side delivery three times a week and insulated, reusable, cooler bags. It's also compostable, is that correct?

[14:45] Turner: The meal containers are compostable, yeah.

[14:47] Maya: Okay. And I was actually looking at some of the meals, and you've got a mango yogurt bowl with pistachio apricot granola for breakfast. That sounds amazing. Can you tell me about some of the other meals, some of your favorites that you offer?

[15:04] Turner: Sure, yeah. So, we have a menu that rotates weekly. We focus as much as we can on a seasonally inspired menu. So, there are certain dishes that appear at certain times of the year that you won't see again until fall. For example, we've got a butternut squash chili that I'm a huge fan of. It's not going to be on the menu until fall again. But I think it's so hard to pick an individual dish because there's so much variety. A few that come to mind, I'm a big fan of, basically, all of our overnight oats dishes for breakfast. We've got a base overnight oats recipe that we make, and then our culinary team puts a number of spins on that. So, we've got a dark chocolate avocado overnight oats. We've got a tiramisu overnight oats, all inspired by different flavors, using the same base. For lunch, I love most of our salads. We've got a turnip and green grape salad that does an incredible job balancing the bitterness of the greens, with a little bit of sweetness from the grapes. And then, for dinner, we've got a Korean japchae that I'm a big fan of, a coconut curry dal that I really love. I mean, I could go on and on.

[16:12] Maya: No, I think I'm sold. I think, I think I'm sold. Those all sounds remarkably delicious. So, how big is your organization now? So, you started in 2016. You just had your six-year anniversary. So, tell me about how you grew and how you grew efficiently.

[16:29] Turner: Yeah. I mean, I think the efficiency component came from raising very little capital. And it's forced us to be a very resourceful scrappy team. And there are advantages and disadvantages to that. But I think it's put us in a position of strength, ultimately, in the end, because we've had to be exceptionally resourceful to get to where we are today. And it effectively forced Ariane and I to serve in every single function of the company along the way. So, early on, we were making all of our deliveries. We assisted in the kitchen when necessary. We did all of our marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched every aspect of the business. And I think it gave us a more concrete, holistic understanding for the parts of the business that were going to be challenging to grow and scale, and how to be efficient with hiring. Yeah, I mean, it's been, certainly, a wild journey from where we were day one to where we are now. We've got about 70, 75 employees working for us, and another 50 or so contracted employees who handled delivery, largely.

[17:46] Maya: In what areas are you in? I know, obviously, you're in D.C. Are you countrywide, or are you just in specific regions right now?

[17:56] Turner: So, just in specific regions. We had discussed earlier some of the challenges of the meal kit companies, so the HelloFreshes and Blue Aprons of the world. We've tried to be very thoughtful about our supply chain, and are a completely vertically integrated company, which isn't super common in our space, but from our perspective, one of our biggest differentiators. It allows us to deliver a very high-touch customer experience. We own every aspect of the value chain — from ingredient-sourcing through to food prep and production, order fulfillment, and then delivery to our customer. And because we're vertically integrated and hand-deliver product, we, of course, have a smaller geography that we can cover. When we started in 2016, we were serving just two zip codes, and we're now in about 150 in the D.C., Maryland, Virginia area. We're starting to cover pockets of Baltimore and Annapolis, and then all the suburbs surrounding D.C. 

[18:58] Maya: The fact that you're vertically integrated, that's interesting, because in business school we're taught, well, that's usually the best way to go, right?

[19:05] Turner: Yeah.

[19:06] Maya: Is to have that vertical integration. An example of what, you know, we learned in school was Zara. I mean, they're vertically integrated. And, well it's, sort of a double-edged sword based on where you are, in terms of your timeline of your business. But to be vertically integrated in something like this is very, very rare. Starbucks isn't even vertically integrated with, you know, when I go through the drive-thru, I get all of their protein and cheese, you know, their fruit and cheese boxes, and everything else. And I think it's the best thing ever. But, you know, I'm fairly sure that that's not a vertical integration. I'm pretty sure that they source from someone else to create that, because they're a coffee company. And also, that relationship that you have with farmers, like you said, touchpoints, that's very unique in this... in any industry, let alone, you know, food tech.

[19:55] Turner: Yeah. And, as you mentioned, there are advantages and disadvantages to it. From a business perspective, the advantage is certainly that owning every aspect of the value chain does allow you, as a business, to capture margin at each step in the value chain. But I think, more importantly for us, it allows us to own and control the product and customer experience in a way that can't be done if any aspect of the supply chain is outsourced, whether it's the delivery and shipping through UPS or FedEx or outsourcing the production of the product or outsourcing the hand delivery last-mile distribution. It just gives us more oversight and control of the customer experience. And we are of the perspective that, in this market, it's not about being first to market, but about getting the product and experience right, which is why we've placed such a heavy emphasis on it.

[20:54] Maya: Not first, but maybe best — best in market.

[20:57] Turner: Exactly. Yeah, that's what we're striving for.

[21:01] Maya: So, how would you say that the food tech space has been developing over the years? And where do you see the future of it?

[21:08] Turner: Yeah. I mean, things have changed a lot over the past couple of years.

[21:13] Maya: Especially with the pandemic, and I'd like for you to talk about that and about the impacts of that, as well.

[21:18] Turner: Yeah, absolutely. I think, as a whole, the food industry has really lagged other industries in terms of e-commerce adoption. So, if you think about furniture, electronics, books, fashion, it's quite common to purchase those products online in the U.S., so the e-commerce adoption rates across those industries are north of 25, 30, sometimes 50% of the sales are purchased online. In the food space, it's the opposite. I think, prior to the pandemic, it was e-commerce adoption was probably around 5%. Yet, it's the largest area of consumer spending in the U.S. There's been a trend of more and more consumers purchasing food and beverage products online, but the pandemic certainly helped catalyze or accelerate that trend.

[22:11] Maya: For sure. I mean, you know, people started using Instacart more, you know, all of those different businesses that really provided convenience and safety, where they would just, you know, you can, you can get on Instacart and get all your Topo Chico delivered right by your door.

[22:26] Turner: Mhmm.

[22:26] Maya: So, you know, from working with your dad and flipping homes in Houston post-undergrad, and co-founding Vegetable and Butcher with your girlfriend, it seems like you value having your career tied to people that you have close relationships and that you trust. Is that something that has... You know, is that the way that you grew up? And is that something that you see as a necessity for you?

[22:49] Turner: 1,000%. I would probably describe it as like finding my kind of human, like, the types of people that I want to be around. And I'd found that, even prior to starting V and B, knowing that we were going to start the company, I joined a local organization called Netcito. I've become really close with the founder of that company. He calls it peer-based advisory for entrepreneurs and founders. And I would probably describe it as therapy for business owners. But I immersed myself in that community prior to starting V and B. And it really just allowed me to recognize that these are the types of people that I'm meant to be around.

And nothing against my prior experience. I loved my work at Carlyle, and I was just in constant awe of the people I was working with because they're so exceptionally sharp. And I think they're the best at what they do. But when I, when I found myself getting more and more immersed in the entrepreneurial community in D.C., it was just a greater realization that, like, this is where I was meant to be.

[24:00] Maya: Even though you didn't study entrepreneurship at Rice, which is one of the number one entrepreneurship programs in the country.

[24:07] Turner: I did not, no. And yeah, one of, one of my regrets, for sure, in hindsight. I tend to not have much of a throttle. It's more of an on or off switch with me. And so, when I, when I decided on finance and real estate, I was all in and focused intently on that, for better or for worse. But yeah, that tends to be my pattern of behavior there.

[24:33] Maya: Well, you never know. I mean, I think that with the Lilie Lab at Rice, which is their entrepreneurship arm and program, I think that they would love to have you come back to Rice, and you can tell your story to budding entrepreneurs that are at Rice.

[24:47] Turner: Yeah. I was actually in Houston not too long ago, and I did make my way to campus and connected with the folks at Lilie Lab. I love what they're doing with that program there, and it's exciting to see that the undergrad program is getting involved and has access to Lilie Lab. And it's very cool what they're building there. So, any chance I can get to be a part of it, I'd love to.

[25:09] Maya: So, for someone that is starting, or even just studying entrepreneurship, and is thinking, you know, kind of, maybe dipping their toe into it, what kind of advice could you give them?

[25:22] Turner: I generally try to do my best not to give advice.

[25:27] Maya: Sorry, I'm going to make you. I'm putting you on the spot.

[25:31] Turner: But I would say, if you have some idea for the industry you want to be involved in, to do everything you can to immerse yourself in that community. I've found that people are generally open to and genuinely enjoy being helpful to others. I mean, I certainly feel that way. And so, just finding opportunities to connect and immerse yourself in a particular community is, probably, the first thing I would say. Rice and the business school, they do a great job teaching you what it means to network and different ways to go about it. At the end of the day, it's really just about, how can you be helpful to others? And the rest, kind of, falls into place if you approach relationships from that perspective. And so, yeah, I mean, immersing yourself in the community and just finding ways to be helpful to others. It often starts as a side hustle when you're working a full-time job. So, if you've got the passion and grit to be working on a side hustle, then I would say the same probably applies to connecting with others in the space.

[26:38] Maya: And patience, right?

[26:40] Turner: Yeah. In my experience with V and B, everything takes twice as long and costs twice as much. So, yeah, patience is a big one.

[26:50] Maya: Well, as soon as you come to Texas, will you please let us know?

[26:53] Turner: Absolutely.

[26:53] Maya: Because I think you're going to have a lot of really, really loyal customers, like, right here, I'm definitely going to be one of them.

[27:02] Turner: We'll just put the kitchen next to Rice University.

[27:04] Maya: I mean, I think that's a great idea. I think we can work out the real estate. I mean, we've got a bunch of really brilliant minds over there that we can make that happen. But there's definitely a need throughout — not just the country, but the world — to have sustainable, healthy, clean food, you know. I mean, this is, this is something that is the bare bones of society.

[27:25] Turner: Everybody's got to eat.

[27:28] Maya: Everybody's got to eat. I think that's a great way to end. Listen, Turner, this has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Owl Have You Know. And we definitely want to stay in touch and keep track of V and B and watch you grow.

[27:43] Turner: I appreciate it. Yeah, it was a pleasure to connect.

[27:49] Outro: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.