What Practicing DEI in the Workplace Really Means feat. Professor Mikki Hebl

That situation may not be the same situation that we had at Rice. Twenty years ago, there were three women in the psychology department. So, we didn't have a problem with women getting stuck in the middle. We just didn't have women.

So, if I were to tell you, let's do DEI exactly the same here at Rice as we do at U of H, or let's take Chevron, where Chevron has a very active DEI group, right? They have all sorts of programs to celebrate many different employee resource groups versus a construction company which doesn't have any women. You would never say, “Let's run the same DEI.” What you want to do is take something called an organizational needs approach and say, “What are our issues here? Is it about women, or is it about… is that fine? What's happening? Who is not happy at work? Is it the White man? Are people being accommodated based on their disabilities? Like, what is going on at this organization?”

So, we do something called an organizational needs analysis, and we say, what is the outcome we're trying to get to? And then we align our initiatives toward that. That's what DEI is intended to be. Very, very sadly, what DEI is now known, by many, is what you said, which is giving unfair advantage to others. But that's really a politicized term. It's not what DEI is. And again, I hope that the readers and listeners who are interested in this will read the book that we wrote, because I think it really does talk about more wholly DEI initiatives and about the major biases that exist and why such initiatives are so important from people across many different social categories that are protected, that are protected social categories.

So, for instance, we have something like diversity training. I'd like to talk about that if I can. Okay, so diversity training is another one that, kind of, gets a bad reputation. Now, there's been researchers who have done, again, a meta-analysis. We already talked about what that is. It's a big study looking at, not just one, let's not just cherry pick, let's look at all the research on diversity training and let's see what it says about diversity training. So, there's a study by Bezrukova. And what she found is actually diversity training works. It's successful. It's the most successful at teaching people information. It's the second most successful at changing behavior. And it's the third most successful at changing attitudes. Attitudes are tough. People don't want… they will die by their attitudes. But it does change them. It just changes them later.

Now, why do we want diversity training? Because diversity training is teaching us, what are the norms in this organization? What should, how should we be treating people? What I like to say is it's very similar to safety training. So, if you wanted to go to an organization and you said, “I don't want to do safety training. I don't want to learn how to wear my hard hat,” we would laugh at you. We would say, “You have to know the rules. You got to, like, tie off. You got to do these things. We don't want you to lose your hand in the wood chipper, okay?”

And so, the same thing is true of diversity training. It's trying to protect people. Now, some people say, “Okay, but it shouldn't be mandatory.” Oh, do we say that safety training shouldn't be mandatory as well? What we know is diversity training should be mandatory.

Now, here's where the negativity may come in, is not all diversity training is science-based. DEI is a science. When we have individuals just saying, “Oh, I'm, you know, a person who's older,” or, “I'm a woman,” or, “I'm blank, so I'm going to tell you what I think,” that's a problematic diversity training. But that's, again, not what diversity training should be. It should be science-based. It should be based on an organizational analysis. So, what are the groups that have faced problems? This is about protected classes and about curb cut effects, where, as you said beautifully, the tide rises everybody. So, everybody feels better. It's not about alienating everybody. It's about teaching people that it's not a zero-sum game. That your benefits, that your success, helps my success because we're working for the same entity. Does that make sense?

[32:54]Maya: Absolutely, rather than fragmenting different ethnic groups, genders, you're part of the same community. You're working towards the same goal.

[33:05]Mikki: Absolutely. Absolutely. But it doesn't also mean an invisibility of those differences. So, one of the things you want to think about is, you have a beautiful green shirt on today. And I think you probably take pride in that green shirt. You decided to put it on. It's lovely. I'm wearing one of my favorite shirts. And that's part of diversity. It's like we want to celebrate what we are and what we like. And that's not the same thing for everyone. So, if I celebrate Yom Kippur or Diwali, I want to be able to celebrate that in the workplace just like the predominant Christian culture, right?

So, it's not about pushing down differences. It's about saying there's room for everybody. This is no longer a melting pot. It's a Waldorf salad. And there's some of this and some of that. And that's what makes the salad yummy, is nobody wants to eat just lettuce.

[34:06]Maya: No, that would be horrible, especially without dressing. That sounds horrible. That's, like, my worst nightmare. And, you know, that's another issue, is that, I think that the fact that we're focusing on DEI in this country says a lot about what, really, we are about, you know. Like, we are a country based on immigrants. That is what, you know, our charter was all those years ago. And we're a fairly young country, but we also recognize that we should celebrate our differences and we should also recognize how we are all more alike than we are different. I think that that is so, so important, that even though I have a green shirt on and you have your shirt on, we still have so much in common.

So, what are your hopes for the future of this kind of work? And what are you planning on doing in the future?

[34:54]Mikki: Oh, well, thank you so much. My hope is that, I think, when politicians start to decry science, we get into a real problem. And I think that's happening. And our world is one where science and the advance of science has made us the great country that we are. And I think, if we lose our belief and our leadership in science, other countries are going to pass us by.

And that's fine if that's what the country wants. But science is just critical. It's a critical aspect of moving forward. And so, I want people to be aware of science. I want them to read science. I want them to stop being on one side or the other of the political issue. I want them to be more aware of their biases. I really want that to happen. And it's just, it's very hard to make people aware of their biases, because even when you show them they're biased, they say, “Oh, well, everybody's biased, so I don't need to change.” And it really starts with individuals.

So, the thing I'd like to do is reduce people's biases. I'd like to make the world a better place. I'd like to make organizations more fair. I'd like to advance science, particularly, behavioral science.

In terms of me, particularly, you know, I trudged forward. So, I was country when country wasn't cool. Now, DEI… I mean, it would have been a lot better if we had written this book three years ago, when nobody could get enough DEI. But, you know, we're not going to change the name of it when that's what it is and when people are really perceiving it incorrectly. This is a copy of the book.

[36:40]Maya: Yes. There it is. There it is.

[36:42]Mikki: And it's, and it’s on Amazon. And as of yesterday, we were the bestseller in psychology and human resource management, so…

[36:51]Maya: Wow. Congratulations.

[36:52]Mikki: Available. Thank you so much. And, you know, really, all the proceeds go to charity. So, this is not a moneymaker. This is really, truly, I work together with one of the best people in the world, Eden King. And it's just been a pleasure. And we love what we do. And we are truly trying to make the world a more equitable place and organizations run more smoothly, efficiently. There's a business case. There's a moral case. But really, it's the realistic case. It's what's happening in our great city of Houston and in our country. We're becoming more diverse. And curb cut effects are really what we're focused on. And I want people to understand that there's room in the tent for everyone.

[37:38]Maya: Ah, words to live by. There's room in the tent for everyone. Dr. Hebl, it's been a pleasure to talk with you today. And I really am very, very grateful for your perspectives and for your work. And to be continued, because we’d love to have you back soon, because you're the expert in this field. And it's a field that needs to really be elevated, and more people should pay attention.

[38:03]Mikki: Thank you, Maya. I really appreciate you giving me time. Thank you.

[38:07]Maya: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe or leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We’d love to hear what you think.

The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.