What Is My Purpose Here? feat. Mike Dey '20

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to Owl Have You Know, a podcast from Rice Business. This episode is part of our Pivot Series, where guests share stories of transformation in their lives and careers.

[00:12] Mike: That's super attractive to somebody. The idea of doing your own thing and having your own little domain that you're totally responsible for is pretty exciting, compared to kind of that frustration, sometimes, of large organizations and the politics and the bureaucracy.

[00:32] Maya: Today on Owl Have You Know, we visit with Mike Dey, online MBA from the class of 2020. A Houston native, he received a BS in Aerospace Engineering from the University of Colorado Boulder, and began his career as an engineer for a flight crew operations integration at Boeing in 1996. So, really, you're a rocket scientist, right?

[00:53] Mike: I wouldn't say that, Maya.

[00:55] Maya: But close. But close. So, you designed an integrated commercial aircraft flight deck alerting and communication systems and worked on all of the Boeing models, with a focus on the 777, the triple seven, and the 737-NG. And I don't know what that means, but I'm sure that you can explain the differences to me. In 1999, you became a systems engineer and project manager at Universal Avionics Systems Corporation, where you implemented system design, test, and certifications for avionics hardware and software. And following your time at Universal Avionics Systems Corp., which I'm sure there's an acronym for that, you were turned back to Boeing for an impressive 15-year career and progressed from lead engineer of flight crew operations to manager of the 787 flight deck, to manager of the flight deck production development, to regional director of feature strategy, to senior manager of BCA features strategy and business development. And initially, you wanted to go back and get your MBA to advance your existing corporate career, but you pivoted. And that is super-duper exciting, because while at Rice, you really weren't expecting to become an entrepreneur and purchase, acquire an existing company and completely switch directions from where you were in the past.

[02:15] Mike: Exactly right. That's a great summary.

[02:17] Maya: Okay. Well, tell me about why you decided, first of all, to go into aerospace engineering and what really, you know, sparked that interest for you. Do you come from a family with that sort of background of aerospace engineering?

[02:34] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up really interested in airplanes and anything mechanical. My dad is and was a helicopter pilot, flying to offshore oil rigs in Houston. And he and I used to go flying as a kid. And so, you know, I loved airplanes, growing up. I thought about maybe becoming a commercial pilot. But, for me, engineering just seemed like the natural path, and getting involved in aerospace was a way to, you know, combine that passion of aviation with what I was good at, which was kind of that mechanical engineering interest.

[03:07] Maya: So, tell me about your time at Boeing. What was that like?

[03:10] Mike: So, it was fantastic and a great career. I love the company. The people there are the best in the world at what they do. I had a love for the products and the way, the way the work goes. For me, it was really a dream job, coming out of college, because I had that interest in flying and the flight deck and how the pilots operate the airplane. And so, being asked to join the group that does that work was really a dream come true as, you know, a graduating senior coming out of, out of engineering school. So, it was really the right career path for me at the time.

[03:48] Maya: But at some point, you decided, you know what? I need to go back and get some more knowledge. There was something that you were looking for, obviously, because nobody just decides one day, you know what? I'm just going to go back to school, because that's a very daunting task for most people.

[04:05] Mike: Exactly. And, you know, a lot of engineers do get MBAs. And it was something that came up a lot among my, you know, my friends at work and was something that people talked about. But, for me, I never wanted to go back to school. I felt like it was so difficult to get that aerospace engineering degree. I kind of swore off any more schooling.

So, it was never really in my mind for those 20 years, you know, that I was progressing in the company. And then, as I got exposed to special projects and kind of was looking for something different, I think, in retrospect, I realized that I need kind of a new challenge every few years, something new to learn. And the way I was accomplishing that inside the company was looking for new assignments and gradually, you know, growing my breadth and experience working for different teams.

And through some of those special projects, I got exposed to the business side of the company, you know, everything from finance, to legal, to M&A, to strategy, marketing, and sales. And that really started to kind of light a spark for me, that I wanted to know more about, how does the company work? How did airplanes get sold and financed, and things like that? And so, that started to sort of put that wedge in that I realized I needed some additional education. Plus, it was recommended, by that time I was working in strategy for the company., and my leaders kind of said, "Most people who progress here do need a formal business education." And so, they kind of encouraged me and pushed me to seek an MBA.

[05:45] Maya: Interesting. So, it was people within the company. Well, little did they know that you taking that step would actually lead you to doing something completely different. The irony of that is not lost.

[05:57] Mike: Yeah. When, I started my MBA, you know, my intent was to stay with Boeing, you know, add to my toolkit and be ready for next assignments and whatever else my career... you know, wherever my career might take me. But I also had an open mind. And that's part of the reason why I chose Rice, was the online MBA program was just becoming available at the time I was searching. I was looking at schools outside of the Seattle area. I've been in Seattle the last 20 years. Because I was just interested in a broader exposure to people from other industries and backgrounds beyond kind of the tech aerospace culture here in Seattle, and having grown up in Houston and seeing the Rice program become available, it was just like it just really got me excited about the possibility. And so, I chose Rice or tried... you know, assumed I would apply and hopefully get in. And I did.

[06:53] Maya: Well, and it is. It's a, it's a very new program. And it was one of Dean Rodriguez', you know, initiatives, is to have this online program at Rice. So, that's actually a program that I looked into as well, because I thought that there was so much flexibility and opportunity. And then, with COVID, a lot of the in-person classes actually took the same page out of an online program. So, it was interesting, how that all worked out. And maybe, because Rice had their online program when COVID hit, there are other programs that were in-person programs became so successful, because they had that opportunity to build this online program. So, tell me about the online program and the connections that you made and how you were able to really meet professors and cultivate those relationships.

[07:47] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I was looking for hybrid programs. I did want something that included an in-person component, which the Rice MBA does include the intensive weekend portions. And that was very important to me. I thought going into it. And it did turn out that way. But what most impressed me was how well, even over Zoom, those connections were formed among my cohort, you know, working on group projects remotely and spending the time together in class. It really was amazing how well everybody was connected.

And then, when we did end up meeting for those weekend intensives on campus, it was just that much more, you know, accelerated that we got to know one another, we would meet people from other cohorts. And so, I just... I was impressed and very much exceeded my expectations, as far as building that community and getting to know my cohort.

[08:47] Maya: So, I don't know if you had this experience, but I did, because we... because I was a class of '22. And so, we were the COVID cohort that started in 2020. And I had seen all of these people on Zoom in their little tiny boxes. And then, when I met them in person, I'm like, "Wow, you're a heck of a lot taller than I was expecting you to be." Did you have those sorts of experiences as well?

[09:08] Mike: Yeah, exactly, certainly taller than you expect. And everybody had... from what I've heard, had the same experience that Prof. Rountree, who teaches financial accounting, for some reason, his recorded videos, you think he's maybe not a person that is as tall as he is when you actually meet him. It's like, wow, you're way taller than I thought you were.

[09:27] Maya: Yeah, for sure. So, why did you choose Rice? Because there are other online programs that have been around a bit longer. Was it the Houston connection that you wanted to have? Or, what was it that made you choose Rice over other schools?

[09:44] Mike: Yeah, I definitely, as I said, wanted to get out of Seattle, if possible, for the exposure to different industries and people of different backgrounds. And I did look at schools around the country. A lot of the good business schools, top business schools, are starting to offer these programs. And I wasn't intentionally looking for Houston at the beginning. But when I saw that the Rice program had become available, it just quickly jumped to the top of the list because of the reputation of the school. You know, when I was growing up in Houston, Rice was... you know, it was...

[10:18] Maya: The place.

[10:19] Mike: The place, yeah, the Ivy League school of the South.

[10:23] Maya: That's right.

[10:24] Mike: And so, I never expected at that time that I would be able to attend, you know, a school like that. But now, with experience and more ability, I thought that would really be an awesome choice. And then, what really cemented it was, when... I did apply to multiple schools and was accepted, but I was able to speak with Dean Rodriguez during that phase, and just his description and warmth and perspective on what Rice is doing with business education, you know, it's not just about making a lot of money in consulting or whatever, it was about solving these big problems. And I really... it really resonated with me, the way that he described kind of the ethos of the Jones School. So, that really sealed it for me.

[11:09] Maya: Yeah. Well, he is a rock star in and of himself. And every time that you're around him, you know he's just one of those people that is very inspirational and just... you know, I think that he's an incredible leader at Rice. And we're incredibly lucky to have him. And his own innovation within the school is really... it stands in a league of its own, you know. He's just one of those people.

[11:34] Mike: Absolutely. Very impressive, yes.

[11:36] Maya: Yeah. So, I want to go back a little bit to your 15-year career at Boeing. So, while you were there, you know, there's a lot of talk about different communications issues right now. We've got the 5G and how that interferes with communications on planes and everything like that. So, I wanted to talk to you about how aircraft communications, over the years, has changed and what you feel is the most impactful.

[12:00] Mike: Sure, yeah. I mean, over the period that I was working there, there was a shift from voice communications over-the-radio into more of a digital satellite-based communication. And that was a pretty exciting thing to be a part of, because what it did was unlock the ability for airplanes in remote airspace to operate more closely together; and hence, more efficiently. Whereas, in the old days, you had to space them out a lot more because of the unreliability of the pilot communications and the position.

And so, kind of being a part of that, participating in industry forums, traveling around the world, and working with our customers at the time was really motivating to see that kind of shift, you know, to more digital modern communications.

[12:50] Maya: Excellent. That's wonderful to see. So, now, let's pivot away from Boeing. So, while you were doing this online MBA program at Rice, what happened? What was the class where you're like, "You know what? This is awesome. I love what my career has been up until now. But actually, I want to do something completely different, and I want to be an entrepreneur."

[13:16] Mike: Yeah. I mean, absolutely, it was Al Danto's enterprise acquisition. I mean, from the first set of asynchronous videos I watched, something just caught me, just lit a spark, this idea of all of these hundreds and thousands of small companies around the country that are good little businesses but maybe don't have an air or aren't big enough for private equity to be interested in or whatever, I just didn't even know that it was a thing, that it was possible to buy a business or that this... there was this marketplace.

And, you know, as far as entrepreneurship, I always liked the idea of it, but I never thought that, personally, I had like that thing that could become a business. Like, to me, entrepreneurship was startups. And especially, living in Seattle and, you know, my spouse has been involved in a couple of startups, so I've been exposed to the industry and I've seen what it takes. And I just didn't feel like I had, A, the idea and necessarily, B, the skillset.

I think one of the things that the perspective I had was I was mid-career, you know, a little older than the average MBA. I was already in my mid-40s when I started. And I kind of felt like my skillset was locking me into my career, in some ways. Like, you know, I knew I was good at a lot of things. I liked coaching and mentoring. You know, I'm good at problem-solving. But I wasn't sure that I could pivot out of that industry into something totally different. And so, you know, a number of the classes in the MBA program were expanding my thinking there. But then, when I got to enterprise acquisition, it was a light bulb went off, absolutely.

[15:02] Maya: Yeah. Al Danto has a way of doing that. I had him as a professor as well. And you actually came to speak to one of his classes. That enterprise acquisition class that had such a tremendous impact on you, you actually spoke at that class and had an impact on me as well. So, full circle over there for that class. So, tell me what you're doing now.

[15:24] Mike: After going through the, through the enterprise acquisition process of finding a business and then purchasing it, part of the time while I was still doing my MBA, now, I am the owner and president of a company called American Spray Technologies, which is in a completely different industry than anything I ever thought I'd be involved in. And we manufacture large spray machines that are used in the construction industry.

[15:53] Maya: So... And the construction industry is really booming.

[15:56] Mike: Absolutely, yeah. It's a good place to be, fingers crossed, for now. You know, the nation is still way behind on housing. So, I'm hoping that a lot of building happens over the next decade and that our customer base is busy in buying machinery to use in construction. But yeah, it's been quite a pivot, from a corporate career into owning and operating a business.

[16:22] Maya: And then, how did you find this business? And what made you think this is the one?

[16:27] Mike: Yeah. So, I followed the framework that we teach in enterprise acquisition. There's a very nice process, you know, where we talk about understanding your own makeup, personal makeup, and what motivates you and what you're good at.

[16:42] Maya: The BOSI? The BOSIs?

[16:43] Mike: The BOSI, exactly, yeah.

[16:44] Maya: Which is you're a builder, an opportunist, a specialist, or an innovator.

[16:50] Mike: Exactly.

[16:51] Maya: And you take the test, and then it gives you the percentages of what you are, right?

[16:55] Mike: Exactly, yeah. So, that helps you sort of focus on what type of business you might be interested in. And then the framework walks you right through, you know, finding and narrowing down searching, and then, and then analyzing and determining what business might be right for you. So, I just followed that framework. When I was in the class, it was during the summer for me, and we had a pre-planned summer vacation, my wife and I. So, we were off work for a week. And that was, maybe, week two of the class or something. And, as you know, when you're in this program, you don't really take vacations, you know, because you're still doing your—

[17:35] Maya: No. You have no life.

[17:36] Mike: Right. You're doing your coursework continuously. So, something made me think, let me take this week that I don't have my regular job to worry about. And let me be a searcher full-time. I'll just dedicate 40 hours of this week that I'm off work to doing exactly what is described in the course framework. And that's what I did. And then, I started networking locally in the Northwest and talking to business brokers and banks and starting to build out that network, so I could discover businesses for sale in the area. And that was kind of the launching pad for the rest of the search, which I accomplished during the class. And then I did the follow-on lab. We have an enterprise acquisition lab that you can take optionally, where I kind of finished out the search and went through the initial process of acquiring the business.

But to answer your question more directly, I knew I wanted a business or to try to find a business that built something. I wanted to, you know, use my engineering background and make a physical product. I wasn't so interested in services or software or some of those other great fields that I just didn't seem to suit my, you know, interest and abilities. And so, I looked at a lot of different companies that built things, repaired things across a lot of different industries.

And the company I ended up buying I actually eliminated from my list at first because it only has one industry, really, that it relies on — construction. And I thought I wanted something, you know, with a broader potential customer base. But I ended up looping back to it, understanding that it has actually commercial and residential. And I thought that that could help cushion any blows from one market or the other. That's how I ended up arriving at that. I just followed the course framework.

[19:31] Maya: And you did it in a week. That's very efficient.

[19:34] Mike: Well, I started the process in a week. It took a few... it took about a month to, like, come up with that list of businesses to start looking at.

[19:45] Maya: Yeah, yeah. So, but I mean that's the thing, you have to carve out that time and you have to be motivated enough to make that sort of transition and that jump. And so, my other question to you is, what did you tell your wife?

[19:57] Mike: Yeah. So, I'm very fortunate to have a super supportive spouse. So, for the last couple of decades, she had been the one that was doing the riskier stuff. She had a lot of different jobs, between startups, advertising agencies, and other tech companies in Seattle. And so, I always had the, like, stable career at Boeing during those years. And so—

[20:20] Maya: So, now it's your turn, huh?

[20:22] Mike: Exactly. So, it was like, now that she was in a more stable part of her career, she was super supportive with the idea of me doing that.

[20:31] Maya: So, what advice would you give for people that were in your shoes, not... you know, not so long ago, to make a significant pivot like yours in their careers? Because, I think that, you know, that's a scary thing to do.

[20:43] Mike: It is, yeah. It was scary. Again, I'm fortunate in that I had a partner with health insurance and, you know, and a good income that could help us during that time. But that was just a piece of it. I mean, I talk with people who are solo searchers all the time who do the same thing. And it's just a matter of planning for the financial piece. But really, the big leap, as you say, is that kind of fear of quitting or totally pivoting from a career that you've spent potentially many, many years getting really good at.

And, I guess, there's no good answer other than, how do you do something you've never done before? Well, you just do it. You just start. You know, you get advice, you follow people, find people you admire who have done things like that and kind of learn what they did. And, yeah, it's scary. But also, for me, personally, I needed something new, anyway.

And I knew that, back to the Rice MBA, I knew that, if I failed at the search and I wasn't able to successfully acquire something, I could now use that MBA to parlay it into some other more traditional job. You know, it's a good time in the economy. I knew I could, I could probably get a job at one of the other large companies in the area, even if I had left Boeing.

[22:05] Maya: Well, that's the thing about a Rice MBA. You've got it for life, and you've got that network for life. And you... really, it's a safety net of sorts, where, you know, you... you've got that opportunity where it never really goes away. It doesn't really matter what you do in life. You can always pivot in a different direction, or that's the thing, is you have to be willing to take those risks and know that you've invested in yourself. That investment will last a lifetime.

[22:33] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, something I always told young... one of my favorite parts of being a leader at Boeing was mentoring and coaching younger employees. And, you know, I always encourage them to network, you know, that there's something so powerful to even getting up from your desk and walking across the floor or up one floor, down one floor, to somebody who you're about to send an email to and talk face-to-face. And, you know, you might see a photo on their desk or some personal thing that sparks a conversation and ends up building a relationship. And you can't have too many of those kind of in the business world. And you never know where things will lead.

And, you know, now, one of the fun things I talk about with my wife now that I own the business is, all of the people in our network that I can call upon for different things, you know—insurance broker or people that are experts in social media marketing or whatever it might be, just people that you've encountered over your career. And so, building those networks is so important for setting yourself up for the future, but also having options in the future and things like that. So, that is just hugely important, I think, and helped me a lot, is always trying to go the extra mile to get to know people and connect, you know, even when, even when you might normally just talk to somebody electronically.

[24:02] Maya: Well, absolutely. And also, it's an investment in your education and your skillset, but the biggest investment you make is in the people and the relationships that you build, online or in person. I mean, these are people that are going to be with you for the rest of your life. And it's interesting because, you know, you kind of go to college and you think, you know, that's it and I'm... and it's done, or, you know, graduate school right after college. But the thing about Rice in this online program is, literally, you can step into that at any point in your life. You could be 90 years old and decide that, you know what? I need to go get that MBA that I've always wanted.

[24:37] Mike: Exactly, yeah. And I thought I would be the old man in the class, but it turned out there were a number of people that were more experienced, you might say, in their careers. So, yeah, absolutely, it's never too late to do something like that.

[24:50] Maya: Never too late. I felt like I was going to be the oldest person, too. And I was, you know, pleasantly surprised I wasn't. So, that was kind of... I agree with you on that. So, how did Rice prepare you, though, to be an effective leader in a small business? Because you have been in very large corporations.

[25:05] Mike: Yeah, yeah. I felt like I already had a lot of the people stuff, a lot of the, you know, mentoring, coaching, and leadership, difficult conversations. All that, I was very well-trained. What I didn't have was the broader elements. So, financials and just understanding balance sheets and sales forecast. You know, just every other thing that you'd need in a business, I'd heard of and I, you know, I knew I could probably learn, but I never was really exposed to it. And so, going through the program, it just gave me this other broader toolkit that now I'm comfortable, you know, looking at numbers, making decisions, and things like that. So, it definitely was being more comfortable and able to do... talk to the banks, going through the deal process, and things like that, to having those additional financial skills, primarily.

[26:02] Maya: Right. And then, you know what an R-squared means and the correlations and everything else and how to read a financial statement and the big red flags that you should look for.

[26:13] Mike: Exactly. Debt and equity and capital structure and stuff like that were things, again, that I had never really been exposed to. So, those were very important, I think, to kind of give me a leg up.

[26:24] Maya: And also, what Rice does is the teamwork, because you are divided up into teams when you come to Rice. And that's something that was fascinating to me because you literally rely on your team for an entire year to submit these projects and this coursework and the perspectives that you get, because, you know, the way that they assign the teams, they really bring people from different walks of life. And I would've never, in a million years, have met the people that I met. And they become some of your closest friends for life.

[26:59] Mike: Yeah, I had the same experience, for sure. And the other thing I was struck by was how dedicated everybody was in my cohort. It's just different when you're, I think, at this level of education. And professional people, you know, everybody took it pretty seriously and, actually, was reliable and turned in their part of the assignment and things like that. So, it was a great experience, from that perspective.

[27:24] Maya: Yeah, you don't want to let your team down, because then you got to see them the next week.

[27:31] Mike: Exactly.

[27:32] Maya: So, what do you hope to accomplish in your business in the next five to 10 years? You know, what's next for you? Are you considering buying other businesses or expansion? Or, you know, what's next for you?

[27:45] Mike: Yeah, that's kind of a million-dollar question. So, you know, they say the advice that Al Danto and others, I think, would give to a new buyer of a business is, don't really change anything for the first year or so, you know. Get to learn the business, understand the industry, and things like that. And I'm now at about a year and a half, and I've only done what you might say as low-hanging fruit, just small improvements, things that the team was looking to change or improve. And I have really been listening, you know. So, just trying to be humble and understand what everybody's tasks are, what their challenges are, and things like that.

And so, going forward, long-term, one of my biggest struggles is trying to decide where to go with growth. You know, whether it's organic growth —I'm working on a couple of new products that we might introduce — or inorganic growth, you know, maybe looking at some kind of plug-in acquisition that would either expand into an adjacent market or adjacent products for my current customer, things like that. So, I don't have a good answer, yet. That's one of my big challenges, is, how do I apply my time the best to decide how to grow?

I will say that, in terms of like advice to other business owners, you know, getting help here is important. So, certainly, your Rice network is a good source. But I've also now hired a consulting agency that provides like a CFO by-the-hour kind of support. And so, he and I have been working on ways to model out strategy decisions, you know, in terms of return on investment, so that I'm not just doing things that are exciting to me, like developing a new gizmo, but I'm actually going to invest in things that are going to be the best return for the company. So, it's something I haven't figured out yet but is definitely where I'm liking to spend my time, is focus on growth.

[29:45] Maya: One more question about Boeing. So, how did they take it when you said you were leaving?

[29:50] Mike: That was another one of the pivotal moments, one of the most difficult moments, was calling my boss at the time and saying that I was going to leave. He was very surprised.

[30:03] Maya: I bet. I bet.

[30:05] Mike: But then, once I explained what I was doing and why I was excited about doing it, he certainly understood. So, it actually came at, again, in terms of being very fortunate. All of this came at a pivotal time for the company, when it was going through, certainly, a crisis after crisis, the max issue that the company went through, and then COVID, and the downturn in the travel industry. And so, at that time, the company was starting to offer buyouts to managers at my level. And so, I was able to grab one of those opportunities to take a buyout and essentially leave with a package, which helped soften the blow of not having a job for six months while I, you know, worked on the deal. But... so, I would say everybody was surprised but understood once I, you know, shared kind of my passion around what I was going to do next.

[31:00] Maya: [inaudible 00:31:00].

[31:01] Mike: And it's a great community. You know, I'm still in touch with everybody there. And a lot of people come and go over the years. That's another thing about good networks. You know, you'll see that people leave and go off to other companies, but then may return, you know, as people stay connected and on good terms. So, everybody was very supportive after the initial shock.

[31:24] Maya: Yes, for sure. So, you actually are teaching some classes now. You were the student, and now you're the professor. So, tell me about that.

[31:32] Mike: Yeah. So, for enterprise acquisition, Al Danto likes to have alumni who have successfully "done" an acquisition to lead some of the live sessions for the MBA at Rice program. And so, I have started to do that, and I'm leading a live session, along with a couple other alumni for just the online program. And so, that's been super rewarding. It's so fun to share my experience, but also connect with students who are interested in it and, you know, are always asking lots of interesting questions. And just seeing the interesting and amazing cohorts coming behind us is awesome. I mean, just the quality of the people, the diversity of the groups, it's really inspiring and keeps me excited about the idea of giving back and participating this way.

[32:25] Maya: No, I agree. When... in my cohort, you kind of look to the left and you look to the right, and you're like, "Wow, how am I here with all of these people, you know?" It's incredible.

[32:36] Mike: Exactly, yeah, yeah. And so, I'm... I was, at first, a little nervous about taking it on. But now, I'm having a great time. And hopefully, the students are enjoying my perspective on it.

[32:48] Maya: I bet you that they are. Is there anything that I haven't asked that you would like to add?

[32:53] Mike: I don't know. I mean, there's just so much about, certainly, corporate careers and, you know, why somebody like me who could have easily spent their whole career at a, at a large company might make a shift like this. I mean, one of the things that I've shared with folks is that, you know, while I love the company's products and the culture... well, the culture, yes. There's certainly coworkers. There are aspects of a large corporation that were getting tiring, like, as you increase in responsibility and management level, you're questioning, what is my purpose here today? Like, I sat in meetings from 7:30 to 5:00. And what did it matter that I was here today? You know what I mean?

[33:42] Maya: Yeah.

[33:43] Mike: It's like, the more responsibility you get, the harder it is to connect, sometimes, your work to the final product. And that can get frustrating, along with the amount of bureaucracy and the time it takes to make decisions and things like that. And so, that's super attractive to somebody. The idea of doing your own thing and having your own little domain that you're totally responsible for is pretty exciting, compared to kind of that frustration, sometimes, of large organizations and the politics and the bureaucracy. I'm such on the opposite side of that now. One of the things I love the most is we have one meeting a week, one scheduled meeting. Monday mornings, we talk about the production schedule for the week, and we go through every area... every area's issues and kind of report out. And that's it. And then, people go do their jobs for the week. If we need to meet on something, we do. But I love the ability to have that kind of lean operation without all the, all the overhead stuff that I had become tired of in the corporate world.

[34:50] Maya: Effective ops management.

[34:52] Mike: Yeah, yeah. And, of course, you know, my company is only 16 people. So, it's a lot easier than when you have 50,000 people. But it's just a very interesting, you know, comparison.

[35:03] Maya: Yeah. Well, this has been great, Mike. I've really enjoyed talking with you about this. It's been a wonderful, wonderful chat. And we've so appreciate you sharing your journey with us.

[35:14] Mike: Absolutely, Maya. Thanks so much for having me. It's always fun to talk about.

[35:20] Maya: Thanks for listening. This has been Owl Have You Know, a production of Rice Business. You can find more information about our guests, hosts, and announcements on our website, business.rice.edu. Please subscribe and leave a rating wherever you find your favorite podcasts. We'd love to hear what you think. The hosts of Owl Have You Know are myself, Maya Pomroy, and Scott Gale.